How much OIL cooling is cost effective to an Arizona Urbanite?

[Gerald Morris]

The glacier on the Upper Santa Cruz River has melted on schedule here in the Old Pueblo, so once again, I ponder how to better cool my miraculously good old 383 and its other drive train constituents with 100+ Fahrenheit temperatures now prevailing for the next 4 to 5 months.

My Cold Case MOP753A radiator with a 16 inch pusher electric fan in front, and a 18 inch 6 blade Derale mech fan on a heavy duty Hayden 2747 clutch, in front of a Gates water pump all do well enough at keeping engine temperatures below 200F even in stop and go ruch hour traffic, but I would like more passive cooling measures added on to reduce dependence on the electric pusher and the mech fan too for that matter.

Thus, the matter of supplementing engine cooling through the engine oil and a separate transmission oil cooler arises. Can the combination of two separate oil coolers for each sub-system significantly reduce engine heat?

I have an old AC condenser, which served as such until I bought Mathilda 4 yrs ago, though I hope to use more explicitly designed coolers for that task, IFF they can do better.

Adding an engine oil cooler may serve to add a bit more capacity to the oiling system, as well as keeping it in a better physical/chemical state. Then my question follows: can a large enough oil cooler reduce engine temperature, supplementing the coolant radiator to that end?

Physically separating the transmission oil cooling from the radiator, and better yet, getting this OUT OF LINE FROM THE RADIATOR should likewise abet engine cooling. BUT, can the transmission fluid be cooled well enough in an alternate location, say, on the passenger side lower fender, suitably placed and perhaps even shrouded and fanned in its own right to this end? How much of an oil cooling radiator would be required to be worthwhile? How much becomes overkill?

If wiser minds than mine have ideas and answers to these questions, I think "T'is the Season" now!

 

[CBODY67]

Before you spend money on components, why not get some magneticly-attached temp sensors for the oil pan and trans pan? Can probably find some vendors in the major trailering magazines. I believe that "Trailer Life" regularly instruments their test vehicles, to check temps while running empty and also while towing their test trailers (which are at the limit of the vehicle's tow capacity, typically).

In both cases, there are minimum temperatures which need to be attained and maintained in order to keep condensate/moisture from degrading the particular lubricants. I remember seeing a thermostatic device for an engine oil cooler in the old Auto World catalogs in the mid-'70s.

GM has sometimes used an oil-water cooler for some of their V-8s. A fitting that puts coolant at the base of the oil filter. Not sure how well that might work, but simpler than an oil - air cooler, I suspect. Plus less expensive.

One strategy might be to seek to decrease lube temps in the first place. Possibly through the use of quality synthetic motor oil and trans fluid? And an OEM-spec rear axle lube, too?

Seems like there was an OEM engine oil cooler on the '74-'78 C-body vehicles with the Heavy Trailer Package? Kind of looks like an a/c condenser of the later '50s, with the tubes spaced widely apart? Rather than the smaller units of many other vehicles.

When the '84 Corvettes gained the (standard equip) capability of displaying engine oil temp readings, I watched them as I drove one. It would take about 10 miles of freeway driving for the engine oil temp to approximate engine coolant temp. On the current pickups with the atf temp display, similar with atf, too. FWIW

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[BigblueC]

As cbody67 said, there are minimum temps that need to be reached with fluids, and there are upper limits that you need to stay under (I think 250-275). If you know that you are approaching the upper limit regularly then you could throw on an oil filter/cooler adapter like this one plus a cooler Trans-Dapt Performance Oil Cooler Sandwich Adapters 1313

When ambient temps cool back down this style should be easy to block off/remove and keep fluid temps where they need to be.

Hot Rod just had an article about this a few weeks ago with info that might help you.
Synthetic vs Conventional Oils and How To Pick the Correct Engine Oil Cooler - Hot Rod

 

[70bigblockdodge]

High engine load/rpm is what drives oil temp up. At a lot of part throttle driving I can't see the oil temp getting much over the coolant out temp, maybe 10°. Much below 150° oil temp will not boil out the contaminates.

 

[Gerald Morris]

GOOD thoughts! Thank both of you gentlemen VERY much. I planned to get an IR "gun" to go hunting hot spots with, but was totally unaware of magnetically attachable temp sensors!

I've been well aware of the importance of keeping oil within its specified temperature range for its longevity since I bought my 1st hotrod; a 70 Mustang Grande'. The matter has always been one of whether it would be worthwhile to purchase and install any oil cooling components for any vehicle I owned. I believe now is the time to consider well.

I have good reason to think my COOLANT stays well below 250F, given both my temperature gauge and that my fingers never have been so much as blistered or even 1st degree burned by the coolant after running. But the actual oil temperature remains terra incognita for now.

OK, I'll get a couple of those magnetic sensors and an IR gun, and then proceed when I have DATA.

Again, BIG THANKS! You fellows remind me why THIS Forum is by far the BEST for me and the Family.

Gerald

 

[Gerald Morris]

High engine load/rpm is what drives oil temp up. At a lot of part throttle driving I can't see the oil temp getting much over the coolant out temp, maybe 10°. Much below 150° oil temp will not boil out the contaminates.

Right! I suspect the oil temp then reaches the same 190-200F as the coolant at present. I LIKE running Tilly on the highway for a decent run at least weekly. I suspect I may not need much supplemental cooling then at all, but I will get a little more instrumentation just to have a bit of data to work with, and confirm my guesses.

 

[Davea Lux]

You probably do not need an engine oil cooler for the temps your engine is running at. If your are paranoid about cooking the oil, why not go to a synthetic blend oil with the higher stability rating? You will need to add the ZDDP additive going that route. Most modern oils no longer have ZDDP unless your are running a 15-40 Diesel service oil, such as Shell Rotella, this is important to control wear on flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Even the diesel service rated oils are on the low end of protection for older engines that need ZDDP.
The transmission cooler is a good idea in a high temperature area. The use of an old A/C condenser was a popular choice back in the day for that purpose and provided more than adequate transmission oil cooling. Today's transmission coolers are specifically designed for that purpose and many have thermostatic controls to keep the transmission oil with certain ranges.

You might also want to consider adding a power steering oil cooler for your hot climate as well.

Dave

 

[Gerald Morris]

You probably do not need an engine oil cooler for the temps your engine is running at. If your are paranoid about cooking the oil, why not go to a synthetic blend oil with the higher stability rating? You will need to add the ZDDP additive going that route. Most modern oils no longer have ZDDP unless your are running a 15-40 Diesel service oil, such as Shell Rotella, this is important to control wear on flat tappet camshafts and lifters. Even the diesel service rated oils are on the low end of protection for older engines that need ZDDP.
The transmission cooler is a good idea in a high temperature area. The use of an old A/C condenser was a popular choice back in the day for that purpose and provided more than adequate transmission oil cooling. Today's transmission coolers are specifically designed for that purpose and many have thermostatic controls to keep the transmission oil with certain ranges.

You might also want to consider adding a power steering oil cooler for your hot climate as well.

Dave

My understanding was that Rotella has been REDUCING the ZDDP content steadily since 2016. I searched and researched this matter about 5 months ago, and found the Petroleum Quality Institute to be the least apt to corporate bribe bias: https://pqia.org/

I currently run Ford Motorcraft's diesel engine oil, 10/30W which has just over 1200 ppm of zinc still. (PETROLEUM QUALITY INSTITUTE OF AMERICA TEST PROGRAM )

I WAS running Rotella T5, first 15-40W, then happier with 10-30W. The lower viscosity stuff totally quiets my lifter(s) (I have one on cylinder 6 that was always chattering with the 10-40W oils.) AND I don't lose the prime on my oil pump after an oil change. You KNOW its GOOD when they expressly warn you not to run it in any engine w a catalytic converter on it too! I also add 1 quart of Valvoline VR1, which has I think 1300 ppm Zn. I do thank you though Dave for advising me about zinc and flat tappet cams! When I build that 400, I'm dedicating it to a diet of Penngrade from birth.

I think we have consensus that an engine oil cooler won't be needed for my low revving, city driven 383. I LIKE the idea of a separate tranny cooler altogether, and probably WILL get that and a power steering fluid cooler too; esp. given that I've had one rebuilt and the other (gear box) replaced within the past 3 yrs. I particularly like my transmission. The septuagenarian mechanics who did that one for me did a truly first rate job, and lectured me about some mistaken notions I was fooling with at the time too. Mathilda idles perfectly at 500 rpm, and shifts better than anything else I've driven in over 40 years.

OK, I have my Summer 2020 Cooling Plan. Now the discussion can be purely academic.

Thanks again Dave!

 

[CBODY67]

As I've tracked the oil forum postings of "virgin oil analysis" at www.bobistheoilguy.com, the zddp levels in Rotella 5W-40 (which is the orig synthetic diesel oil viscosity) have been reduced to what they now are posted to be. Like from 1400ppm zddp to 1100ppm zddp. Chevron Delo is now more like the "car" oils, according to the more recent posts. The Rotella T5 10W-30 semi-syn oil has an additive package very similar to the Briggs-Stratton syn motor oil for lawn mowers. Still a good bit of zddp in it.

The old "SL" rated oils had 1000ppm zddp in them, which was still considered adequate for flat tappet protection. One VW approval with an SL rating was for some of their diesels that ran the injection pump off of a camshaft lobe. So 1000ppm zddp, syn or semi-syn, or dino should be the minimum, allegedly.

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[Gerald Morris]

I've used Bob's oil data before, but like the rigor of the PQ folks data charting a bit more. That Valvoline VR-1 stuffabounds in Zn, but I wish it came in lower viscosity than 50W! I dribble it into my crankcase as I would STP for now, and as needed only. The Motorcraft stuff is a pleasant surprise for budget minded folk who need Zn in their oil. This is my 3rd 6 month cycle of it.

Much Obliged, as always!

 

[CBODY67]

I noticed a Lucas zddp additive at O'Reillys yesterday. Might check the Lucas website for information. Seems like Shaler also has a zddp quart additive?

Isn't the Valvoline VR oil a motorcycle-rated oil? Which might explain its higher viscosity?

The most recent oil ratings do not allow a diesel-spec oil to have a gasoline-spec rating. Allegedly there was some loophole that would allow a high-zddp oil to meet both? But the diesel oil's additive package didn't change, at least on the Rotellas.

CBODY67

 

[BigblueC]

That Valvoline VR-1 stuffabounds in Zn, but I wish it came in lower viscosity than 50W!

It does. I run VR1 synthetic 10w-30 in my Chrysler. It's available in 10-30, 20-50, 30, 40, 50, 60 weights. Conventional and synthetic.

 

[BigblueC]

Isn't the Valvoline VR oil a motorcycle-rated oil?

I don't know about that specifically. It's marketed as a "race" oil that can be run on the street for short periods. I think they recommend 2500 mile change intervals.

 

[Gerald Morris]

It does. I run VR1 synthetic 10w-30 in my Chrysler. It's available in 10-30, 20-50, 30, 40, 50, 60 weights. Conventional and synthetic.

I thought so too, but I think the 50W had the highest zinc content. It also was the only stuff on the shelf WITH Zn when I went looking about 6 weeks back.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p...zpvI40JZNK9OAOEPdksaAkWvEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I wouldn't mind using the 10-30W stuff, if the Zn content is still over 1200 ppm.

My greatest concern running stuff meant for diesel crankcases is the high detergent content. Mind you, I cleaned old Tilly's crank case out with HD oil as soon as I got her, and noted no great increase in leakage, so count myself blessed in this as in so many matters. (Tilly has been blessed by several priests and a Bishop too. The Holy Fathers LIKE old C-body rides!)

For this summer, I will stick with the Motorcraft stuff, unless Brad Penn wants to ship me a case of their stuff gratis, or for my Seal of Approval.....

 

[BigblueC]

Your link has it available through advance. I get mine at Oreillys but they rarely have a full case so I just get them to order a case for me.

I wouldn't mind using the 10-30W stuff, if the Zn content is still over 1200 ppm

Unless something has changed all of the VR1 oils are ~1400 ppm.

 

[Gerald Morris]

I'll dig into this again.

 

[CBODY67]

There seem to be TWO types of detergency orientations. One is the additive package and the other one is the base oil formulation.

Back in the later '90s, when there were "cold start knock" complaints on newer small block Chevy 350s, the GM TSB said to do one oil change with Mobil 1, then return to what had been being used. I thought that was "flaky". But after I had gotten into the oil forums, it was mentioned that an ester-based oil would liquify sludge in the motor, which would clean out oil passages and such. Esters were that sweet-banana-smelling chemicals that we learned about in high school chemistry. And . . . Mobil 1 obviously is ester-based. As is some configurations of Motul motor oil. When you open the bottle, you can smell it easily (at least on the Motul oil).

FWIW,
CBODY67

 

[Gerald Morris]

Oh yes! I know my O-chem 100 stuff! Esters, aldehydes, ketones, alkanes, alkenes, alkynes, ALL fun stuff 2 B sure. So, Mobil 1, and some Motul oils are ester based, so one may need to use a clean shot of Mobil 1 as a solvent for ester based polymer sludge eh? INERESTINGgggggg.... I'm happy to report that Tilly's 383 has a VERY clean oiling system, now. It wasn't too bad when I got her, but after the 1st year, I had by then flushed out what residual crap had accumulated from misuse by ignorant Gen-X-Millenial sorts. I've stuck a digital camera port and LED into the oil pan for a lookabout, as well as opening valve covers, timing chain covers, and frequently adding in a few ounces weekly from the old timing chain cover leak, oil pan leak, cylinder blow-by and such. I see the dark particulate signs announcing the approach of another oil change within the month in the amber now FWIW, and will soon have a fresh bit for summer. I always change for the seasons at the very least, regardless of mileage. Pity even synthetics oxidize and form free radicals over a few short years. Perhaps if motor oil were frozen this would be delayed, but who would do such a thing? If ONLY I could pop into a TARDIS and go fetch some good stuff from 1970 or so.....

 

[CBODY67]

I've got a NOS (paper/steel) can of Arco Graphite 10W-30 on the shelf. Don't get any on your fingers! Or anything else. Lots of black particles in the oil.

CBODY67

 

[Gerald Morris]

High engine load/rpm is what drives oil temp up. At a lot of part throttle driving I can't see the oil temp getting much over the coolant out temp, maybe 10°. Much below 150° oil temp will not boil out the contaminates.

Quick note: Please, for future reference include the S.I. or SAE unit designation for numbers you refer to. Volatiles boil out of motor oil at 150 Celsius, which is 302 Fahrenheit. Suffice to say, I don't plan to ever allow Mathilda's old mill to get closer than 2/3 of that. This is what I design to prevent!