I wish you would come around more often Billy
For Sale It's back !1970 Plymouth Fury 70 440-6 V CODE SPORT FURY GT PROMO SHOW CAR
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shooter65
Senior Member
I agree with almost everything you said except your assessment of the impact on price of a true numbers matching car. The major reason for this is the reality you pointed out of what happened to many of these car's drive-trains. This makes numbers matching cars that more rare. Any serious collector or appraiser will check if a car is numbers matching and adjust the price accordingly. Having said that, in all other area's we agree and I was saying the same thing you did, I just didn't go into as much detail. The fact that this car, restored would not have a numbers matching engine/trans would still demand a premium price although not necessarily as high a price as if the original engine/trans were still in the car.
FYI, numbers matching cars with high performance engines do still exist. My car is truly a numbers matching, highly documented 1969 Plymouth Sport fury with an E86 440 HP. Mine also has one of the two build sheets and the fender tag in tact. Being a southern California car with black interior, the build sheet that was under the passenger side bucket disintegrated but the build sheet in the springs of the rear seat back is in surprisingly good condition.
Congrats on having such a cool and well documented car
I know you probably have no desire to sell your car, but for sake of discussion if you did how much do you think the numbers matching drive train adds to what it would actually sell for in actual $ vs the exact same car in the exact same condition with a period correct motor instead ?
My premise is not much but it will impact some buyers who will buy a numbers car only so it affects the buyer pool but doesn't really impact the price at sale time very much as a percentage
polara71
Old Man with a Hat
I usually presume it is common knowledge Ive read it so many times over the last several years. Do we know with certainty it was only two could there be more? At least one more?
fury fan
Senior Member
I agree.
With the engine/trans gone, the significant rust, and the steep asking price it's not gonna find anyone to restore it anytime soon.
If the price were lower, somebody could put some life back into it -- then maybe someone with deep pockets might notice it and could take it further.
It does have the pedigree of being the road-test car.
78Brougham
"Chump"
After sifting through all of this thread, I've still come to the conclusion, as I've thought from the very beginning, that this car is a piece of crap. After I've read all the threads about numbers matching etc... it just doesn't matter, it's still a piece of crap. And the owner or anyone who buys it, for that kinda money is nuts. CASE CLOSED. Who ever buys...if they restore it, will never get their investment back
fury fan
Senior Member
There are a few errors in here for sure. Right away I see that it calls the 413s wrong, as 62-65 413s in Chryslers would be turquoise, whether std or HP engines.
And wouldn't a 69 383HP and 440HP in a C-body be turquoise also?
Looks like they ignored the C-bodies when they made that list - imagine that!
fury fan
Senior Member
Yep, sad but true. Imagine what you could get for $15k in the C-body world. Might not have the bragging rights of rarity/pedigree, but you'd have a *really* nice car instead.
And even if you had this car fully restored at a car show, I guarantee folks would walk right past it to look at some me-too Cuda or Duster in a me-too high-impact color.
Beep Beep Dave
Senior Member
To me original sheetmetal and documentation are way ahead of my musclecar having its original engine. That's more of a nice to have thing for me.
I have always felt matching numbers was way more important with Chevy's as in many cases you just don't know what you are buying otherwise and that has filtered somewhat to our Mopars.
How many years has this V-Code Sport Fury been for sale by the same owner? Is it a record?
Dave
I have always felt matching numbers was way more important with Chevy's as in many cases you just don't know what you are buying otherwise and that has filtered somewhat to our Mopars.
How many years has this V-Code Sport Fury been for sale by the same owner? Is it a record?
Dave
Wollfen
Old Man with a Hat
The blue motor has been repainted, check the blue overspray on the distributor and hold down bracket. And also the power steering bracket has a little as well as the alternator bracket. Its not an original paint engine.
fury fan
Senior Member
Agreed, but that is why I said it's more likely for a turquoise or blue engine to incorrectly get painted orange, but not the other way around. 'Novices' think every bigblock is supposed to be Hemi orange.
Kinda like The Untouchables when Kevin Costner meets Sean Connery and tells him he is armed because he is a Treasury agent. Connery walks away, Costner calls him out on taking his word on it, and Connery says 'who would claim to be that, who is not???'. So I doubt someone would paint an engine turquoise or blue unless it was already wearing some of it.
69CoronetRT
Senior Member
Accept that it's not about an 'investment'. It's not about 'the money'. If it was about money, very few of us would be in this hobby.
This is an official road test car, a factory promotion show car, a very rare limited production V code model, has great options, and it has great colors to my eye. In fact, of all the V code SFGTs I am aware of, this one checks all the right boxes for me options wise. I would normally prefer one with a/c but no V code cars were ever factory equipped with a/c, so I would live with that. I believe there are enough people out there with the means to restore this car, and in which case, the initial price of entry would not deter them (and in fact might ensure that the car gets bought by someone with the means to really restore the car rather than someone who would let it sit forever more). I believe that Dan is taking the right approach to holding on to these cars and selling them when the right owner comes along, and I give him credit for his fortitude despite the barrage of insults and other denigration that he has sustained over the years. I have never even thought once or even cared if any of my restored cars could be sold for what I have in them. It is only a matter of whether I like the car or not. For me, this is a hobby, not a business, as 69CoronetRT said above.
shooter65
Senior Member
Thank you. Unfortunately, I have no real idea what my car "could" be worth because of the many variables that impact the value of a car. I had it appraised prior to purchase by a professional appraiser recommended by Haggerty insurance and he told me the current value when purchased was 10K but fully and correctly restored he estimated 40K. I think that might be high because C-Bodies currently aren't viewed as collectable. Now, having said that, here is what Haggerty's limited website value estimator says about 69 Sport Furys hardtops.Congrats on having such a cool and well documented car
I know you probably have no desire to sell your car, but for sake of discussion if you did how much do you think the numbers matching drive train adds to what it would actually sell for in actual $ vs the exact same car in the exact same condition with a period correct motor instead ?
My premise is not much but it will impact some buyers who will buy a numbers car only so it affects the buyer pool but doesn't really impact the price at sale time very much as a percentage
More importantly, here is Haggerty's statement on values. I feel the important word in this paragraph is Originality. replacing the eng/trans, even with the correct one for the car is not original.
Obviously, I'm more fond of completely original cars but this may not be as important to others. My point is that the "professionals" apparently feel the same way, that originality is important.
I don't disagree, but you are really making the same argument I am with the exception of the numbers matching motor's importance for a high dollar type car. What started our discussion was the value or lack there of for a car that doesn't have it's original engine. Some members said it wasn't worth anything other than the scrap metal value (paraphrasing) because it doesn't have it's original motor. I commented earlier because I know the car is worthy of being restored without it's original motor and trans, and I know that if it was restored to a respectable degree that the missing original motor will not affect its sale price hardly at all if it were to sell again.
I've studied B body car prices pretty much my entire life and continue to do so. A matching numbers motor does not affect the price of the car substantially, if at all. It only affects the pool of buyers who would be interested in the car. As long as the pool is still big enough the buyers will be there to purchase a car. The price will be determined by:
A. What the car is / options based on the VIN and fender tag or build sheet (i.e. desirablility and rarety)
B. Quality and condition of the car at sale time
C. Options verified by the fender tag and or Build sheet (some plants didn't list as many options on the fender tag as St Louis for instance so build sheet is more important to those cars i.e. all 69.5 six bbl cars)
What does affect what cars sale is originality in appearance and condition (not necessarily matching motor) if a survivor or quality of a restoration. By stressing originality they mean was it restored or still in original appearance ie no chain steering wheels, velour interior in 60s car, recaro bucket seats, fender flares, cowl induction hood on a mopar, at least an original color, etc.
Some car value sites list default values for things such as add +5% for matching motor, or A/C, or 4 speed etc. That is just an approximation though.
Let's take a car that sales have confirmed is probably a $50K car based on what it is and condition - 5% is $2,500. A $10K car 5% is $500. It's negligible to the likely sale price.
Let's say your car was $10K at sale time when you bought it, if it was worth $10K to the larger market it would still be worth ~$10K to someone with a replacement motor if it looked and functioned exactly the same. Just not to you and probably several members here.
Examples I know something about:
Cars that are nice inside and out and run perfectly mechanically - you would be proud to take to a car show and open up everything.
68/69 383 Road Runner's $30K - $40K
70 383 Road Runners $40K - $50K
GTX hardtop add about $5K (no diff for 70 RR/GTX)
Converts add appox $10K for 69 RR, maybe $15K for 70 RR
70 V code RR or GTX - $55 to really big
The range is affected by trans, options, colors, condition with a must have being title and fender tag. Matching engine barely moves the needle if at all. A missing fender tag car is only going to sell to someone who is new to Mopars and doesn't know that it's important ... unless there is a build sheet.
No way you can restore a 68-70 383 hardtop or coupe RR and make money at those prices unless you are a car restorer or can do everything in your garage, and even then you probably would not break even on purchase price + sheet metal + interior + chrome + etc etc + materials + any labor that had to be sourced. Even if someone gave you the car you would be behind because you could have sold the car before doing anything to it and likely had more money in your pocket than restoring and selling.
Let's say the 70 V Code car is really max desirable i..e plum crazy, white interior, buckets, console, 4 speed, tic-toc, Air Grabber, etc. Maybe close to $100K - then maybe if there were two similar cars and the other being FE5 Red say and one was matching numbers and the other wasn't . maybe, only maybe price would be $10K diff but more than likely price would be affected by other things like manual vs auto, buyer pref, story, etc.
It does not matter to the final price of those 383 Road Runners if the engine is original or not. It matters a little value wise to 6 BBL and Hemi. That only affects some buyers who get into that sort of thing.
fury fan
Senior Member
Agreed - for musclecars the NOM factor isn't the big deal that is used to be, and how well the car is preserved/restored, or special options, is a bigger factor, a NOM car that needs nothgin will sell for more than a #s-match that needs some restoration work re-done.
With that said, NOM + rusty sheetmetal is the kiss of death for a 'special' C-body, but not for a musclecar. Even rusty roller base-model A-B-E models sell for more than some of our cars.
In the past I've seen Dan give lots of insulting lowball WIW estimates on Moparts on other people's cars - but then holds his stuff as golden. Some of the grief he gets is over the condition of his cars vs price, but some of it is surely due to the stones he's thrown at other people's houses.
At some point these V-code project cars must transition from 'waiting for the right person' to accepting that the right person doesn't exist yet (and maybe never will). A lot more C-bodies need to evaporate before these cars become viable prospects, and that may never happen as the pool of interested people continues to get older.
With that said, NOM + rusty sheetmetal is the kiss of death for a 'special' C-body, but not for a musclecar. Even rusty roller base-model A-B-E models sell for more than some of our cars.
In the past I've seen Dan give lots of insulting lowball WIW estimates on Moparts on other people's cars - but then holds his stuff as golden. Some of the grief he gets is over the condition of his cars vs price, but some of it is surely due to the stones he's thrown at other people's houses.
At some point these V-code project cars must transition from 'waiting for the right person' to accepting that the right person doesn't exist yet (and maybe never will). A lot more C-bodies need to evaporate before these cars become viable prospects, and that may never happen as the pool of interested people continues to get older.
Totally agree ... this is a very special car on many levels, and this one is very well documented to boot with an article all about this specific car that WorkerBee posted above no less. Very very few muscle cars have that going for it
IMHO this special C body is a muscle-car too
but I'm not going to debate what makes a muscle car a muscle car or what's a pony car etc.
exactly how i look at it...if the ENTRY price is low THE BUYER WILL NEVER have the funds to RESTORE THE CAR.... simple
cm23uoc
Old Man with a Hat
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This car is the most dead horse ever beaten up on. I have been very undecided about it all the time, definitely of no interest at all to my own Standards concerning classic cars, that's why I never got over the stage of an observer.
What I notice is there has been a considerable shift in the Evaluation of the remains of this car. In the past there was practically the unanimous opinion this was an overpriced POS, while now with some more serious restorers of some interesting cars that were considered basket cases in the past the rate of approval has gone up steadily.
What I notice is there has been a considerable shift in the Evaluation of the remains of this car. In the past there was practically the unanimous opinion this was an overpriced POS, while now with some more serious restorers of some interesting cars that were considered basket cases in the past the rate of approval has gone up steadily.
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