Looking at a Hellcat

So how do you keep your DEF fluid from freezing at -30?

If the DEF fluid is frozen, will the engine run?

If you run out of DEF fluid will the engine run?

This sounds like a diesel deal breaker for truck purchased to haul a big RV in summer and short trips around town in winter.
Yes it will run but it derates fuel map to reduce soot and it will start trying to regen almost constantly ( injecting fuel after the turbo in the exhaust stream to incinerate the trapped soot in the exhaust filter)
The emission controls and devices cause a huge amount of problems for the engine they surround.
 
Well since people seem to disagree with my statement about Eco diesels blowing up here's my source. Haven't spent a whole lot of time fact checking but this is a 101 page thread on the subject. I guess anyone interested can read it and make there own decision.
Eco diesel engine failures
I started reading some of that thread a lot of unhappy owners there.
 
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Diesel engines don't belong in the light duty fleet, whether it is cars or "trucks". Clever of Dodge to introduce one to score the top "mileage" claim in the light duty truck segment, but it isn't worth it in IMO. People in large cities are sick of diesel fumes and smoke and it was clear that had to change decades ago, so that is why emission controls were mandated. The government's approach was to require gasoline and diesel vehicles comparably clean in the light duty segment, so manufacturers have tried to get diesels to comply to gasoline emission standards but with poor results. If you can make diesels clean, then fine, build them. But they can't be any dirtier than gasoline vehicles has been the goal. That approach was in contrast to govenment just outlawing them in the light duty segment.

The hardware that currently exists on today's modern diesels is very complex and expensive, and the software controlling when to regenerate the particulate filter is even more mind boggling and dosing the selective catalytic converter is almost as bad (these reduce nitrogen oxides emissions, not particulate). Temperature extremes, driving patterns, and so much more has to be accounted for reliably for these systems to work well over time and without sacrificing fuel economy. The problem is bad enough for heavy duty vehicles, but for light duty vehicles, it is at least twice as bad, and having a few engineers in Italy thinking they are going to be first to market with one of these contraptions in the light duty segment and have them succeed is ludicrous.

Among all the diesel manufacturers, Cummins has the best diesel emission control engineers in my experience and have the issues in better control than anyone else, and they still have issues that confound them, but far fewer now than in the earlier years. Cold temperatures, short driving cycles, and mostly city driving (light loads) are almost impossible to design for and keep the systems functioning adequately without problems. In the heavy duty segment, though, the driving patterns are usually fairly long, loads on the engine are usually at least moderate and cold starts are less of a burden to design for. So they work a lot better. If you load up a particulate filter too much before you regenerate it (start a fire), the fire will run away and consume the filter internally - developing software that predicts the loading of a filter under a myriad of driving conditions, cold start temperatures and durations, is less than reliable at best and backpressure sensors are also incapable of determining when to regenerate as well. If you start the "fire" too often, then fuel economy suffers and owners get ticked. A really bad design problem to overcome.

As the diesel emission controls develop in the heavy duty segment and become more reliable, then the engine designers can once again design the diesel engines themselves for optimum power and fuel economy and let the emission controls clean up the mess - just as evolved in the long history of emission controls on gasoline engines that started in the late 1960s. That is why today's gasoline engines perform so very well and get robust fuel economy too. But whether such success for diesels in the light duty segment will be achieved under conditions that are not ideal for diesels, I do not expect such good results due to the gunk diesels emit under cold, slow conditions and the severe problem of cleaning it all up.

In the light duty segment, gasoline will decline as the primary fuel as hybrids, then battery electrics gradually displace gasoline completely in new vehicles. But diesel fuel will likely prevail in the heavy duty market for some time. Tesla is foraging into the heavy duty electric vehicle market for city heavy duty needs and may also displace significant portions of the diesel heavy duty city markets, but is not likely to displace diesel for the highway long haul market for the foreseeable future.
 
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So how do you keep your DEF fluid from freezing at -30?

If the DEF fluid is frozen, will the engine run?

If you run out of DEF fluid will the engine run?

This sounds like a diesel deal breaker for truck purchased to haul a big RV in summer and short trips around town in winter.

To answer your question Bill we advise our customers to run less than 1/3 full DEF in extreme cold conditions. As 70BB said the software is designed to only compensate so much. The issue FCA had getting the 2017 recertified was that the EPA changed the way they were testing diesels in light of VW’s willful deception and FCA “Forgot” to inform the EPA that in certain conditions the engine did not meet federal regulations primarily on cold start up. The “fix” has been rolled out but many of our customers are refusing to update their vehicles due to perceived performance degredation much like the VW owners who did not want to lose performance just to satisfy the EPA environment be damned. At the end of the day if you want a truck that can go 1300kms on a tank the Ecodiesel is your best choice. BTW the Jeeps seem to have less issues...just sayin :)
 
Still kind of having a hard time with the improper use thing. Now if you are constantly over revving or driving 70 MPH on dirt roads I agree you deserve what you get. However if the punishment for short trips or easy driving is a repair bill for a $20,000 new engine that seems bizarre to me. Does the owners manual make this clear (not that this would matter since you would've already bought the truck before reading it) or is it mentioned to prospective buyers? If not it kind of sounds to me like passing the blame to the customer.
 
Still kind of having a hard time with the improper use thing. Now if you are constantly over revving or driving 70 MPH on dirt roads I agree you deserve what you get. However if the punishment for short trips or easy driving is a repair bill for a $20,000 new engine that seems bizarre to me. Does the owners manual make this clear (not that this would matter since you would've already bought the truck before reading it) or is it mentioned to prospective buyers? If not it kind of sounds to me like passing the blame to the customer.


We do advise our customers that are new to Diesels be it a Cummins or an Eco what kind of driving/maintenance is required. Even Cummins is having issues with the SCR system and DEF pumps. It has driven the value of pre 2013 Cummins Diesel values up as people would rather DPF delete a 2010 Ram 3500 then screw around with pig pee..just ask @Tobias74 why he drives his 2010 and not a newer one or @CanCritter who has a 2007. I can’t get them to trade out lol
 
Yikes, I hope that doesn't hold true for my boss' truck. He'll be hotter than a hornet in a hail storm if it pops.

We do advise our customers that are new to Diesels be it a Cummins or an Eco what kind of driving/maintenance is required. Even Cummins is having issues with the SCR system and DEF pumps. It has driven the value of pre 2013 Cummins Diesel values up as people would rather DPF delete a 2010 Ram 3500 then screw around with pig pee..just ask @Tobias74 why he drives his 2010 and not a newer one or @CanCritter who has a 2007. I can’t get them to trade out lol


Glad to hear Graham that you guys do advise your customers. I'm not so sure about other dealers though. I was thinking of upgrading to a new Cummins to pull our 5th wheel but decided to keep my 2004 5.9. I have a side business selling 55 gallon barrels and a lot of my customers are horse people. I usually get 2-3 people a week coming in with 2014-17 rams. I ask each one how they like their truck. The all say they loved them for the first 10-20 thousand miles. Then fuel mileage drops and power goes down. No satisfactory answers from their dealers. They all say keep your 5.9. So for now I'm listening to them.
 
@saforwardlook
I follow you on most of that Steve but, to say there is no market for light duty is narrow minded old thinking. Light duty diesels being bought by the wrong consumer is making most of their problems. Apparently the oil cooler on the Ram is a bad design, Jeep uses a different one. Other rants I saw are problems with the oil contamination in the cooling system after the cooler let's go, there is only one way to clean that and I'm going to guess 2 years ago no techs at a Ram dealer knows it. Dishwasher detergent run in you cooling system, no more oil.
I understand there is a revamp in the emission devices on diesels coming in 18-19 we'll see if it gets better or worse. They are not for everyone. They need warm up time, they need cool down time and they need to be leaned on when driving.
@azblackhemi Anything without a exhaust filter is like gold now. I "hear" about '08 up trucks with the emissions removed software changed to work without the feedbacks and I have to say those trucks are like night and day. Some have gone from a breakdown every other week to 6-8 months without the check engine light even coming on.
 
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International Trucks gambled all their chips on a proprietary system they were developing. It would have been far superior to what we ended up with.
The Cow Piss lobby doubled the money they threw at the politicians to ram the law forward, leaving IH driven to the edge of bankruptcy. During that period FreightLiner (Dailmer-Benz was heavily invested in cow piss technology), cheapened the crap out of their trucks, and came swooping in to eat IH's lunch.
Now everyone is paying more and one distinct tiny 1% group is making millions.

commas and all
 
To answer your question Bill we advise our customers to run less than 1/3 full DEF in extreme cold conditions. As 70BB said the software is designed to only compensate so much. The issue FCA had getting the 2017 recertified was that the EPA changed the way they were testing diesels in light of VW’s willful deception and FCA “Forgot” to inform the EPA that in certain conditions the engine did not meet federal regulations primarily on cold start up. The “fix” has been rolled out but many of our customers are refusing to update their vehicles due to perceived performance degredation much like the VW owners who did not want to lose performance just to satisfy the EPA environment be damned. At the end of the day if you want a truck that can go 1300kms on a tank the Ecodiesel is your best choice. BTW the Jeeps seem to have less issues...just sayin :)
We do advise our customers that are new to Diesels be it a Cummins or an Eco what kind of driving/maintenance is required. Even Cummins is having issues with the SCR system and DEF pumps. It has driven the value of pre 2013 Cummins Diesel values up as people would rather DPF delete a 2010 Ram 3500 then screw around with pig pee..just ask @Tobias74 why he drives his 2010 and not a newer one or @CanCritter who has a 2007. I can’t get them to trade out lol
I love my 2010 Dodge 3500 4x4 Dually with all the deletes done and ARP 625 headstuds , H&S mini max tuner, 5inch straight pipe, fleece performance vgt turbo and many other upgrades best Diesel truck ever to pull my 40ft 5th wheel and 20ft Bayliner behind the 5th wheel, I always keep my maintenance up to date . Is expensive to run a diesel truck it costed me in 2017 around $9000 on maintenance alone plus fuel but I love my truck and won't miss him.
I always tell people don't buy a diesel if you don't do heavy towing.
 
I always tell people don't buy a diesel if you don't do heavy towing.
Precisely why I'll keep my '98 2500 with the gas 5.9, I can't justify having a diesel. Everyone near me has one, to be cool, or cause the guy next to him has one.
 
International Trucks gambled all their chips on a proprietary system they were developing. It would have been far superior to what we ended up with.
The Cow Piss lobby doubled the money they threw at the politicians to ram the law forward, leaving IH driven to the edge of bankruptcy. During that period FreightLiner (Dailmer-Benz was heavily invested in cow piss technology), cheapened the crap out of their trucks, and came swooping in to eat IH's lunch.
Now everyone is paying more and one distinct tiny 1% group is making millions.

commas and all

The truth is Stan that International bet the farm on their specialty unit injectors alone meeting emission standards, without aftertreatment, and when it was all said and done, they couldn't do it. It had nothing to do with lobbying or other politics. They didn't even have a backup system in case they failed and time ran out when it was time for production. Their managment was really dumb.

It was kind of like Chrysler thinking in the later 1970s that lean burn without catalytic converters would pass emissions, but they couldn't do it with a car that ran worth a crap, so they ended up with lean burn and catalysts, also real dumb and cost them plenty $$ and lost many sales from unsatisfied customers.
 
I'll spout off... diesel was never my primary concern, but I did work on several. Even when the older light duty engines of the 90's trucks were purchased by a person who just wanted to be cool... they made no sense. If hauling a load was a normal part of use, they're tough to beat... but as long as you can run your gas engine P/U without constantly flooring it to meet the speed limit, you probably don't need one.

Dave @70bigblockdodge mentioned the diagnostic skills are lacking out there... the diesel universe has repeated the 1970's/80's learning curve into emission controls and electronics that gasoline car guys went through. Similarly enough, lots of seasoned techs just avoided the new technology and/or retired from vehicle repair. Both the technicians and the engineers have a long way to go to bring back former levels of service and reliability.
 
The Audi does not have a gauge saying the DEF level, unlike my Brother's 2500 Cummins. Both have been wonderful. I really like the diesel on them, besides the fuel mileage, the torque & performance is terrific. I know on the Audi it will shut the engine down if the DEF runs out. As far as reliability, I have a little over 50k on the Audi & have had zero warranty or reliability issues. Not one single repair on the entire vehicle (as of today - knocking on wood lol), other than replacing the tires and oil changes. It's driven on short trips, long, just like any other vehicle. No special precautions like apparently on the Eco. I'd love to build a rat rod using a diesel (like the 6bt) engine.

Yeah Cantflip, I remember all of the little diesel engines like the Chevy Luv. One of my Dad's friends bought a new VW Rabbit diesel back when they first came out. My Dad would sneak over to his house at night and add a little diesel to it every few days. His friend would brag to everyone about how it got 100 plus mpg. My Dad kept this up for a month and then started siphoning a little out each time on his trips. The mileage dropped down to muscle car territory. The friend went to the dealership complaining about the mileage several times. No problem found was the diagnose. Of course he told him after a few trips. :)
 
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The Audi does not have a gauge saying the DEF level, unlike my Brother's 2500 Cummins. Both have been wonderful. I really like the diesel on them, besides the fuel mileage, the torque & performance is terrific. I know on the Audi it will shut the engine down if the DEF runs out. As far as reliability, I have a little over 50k on the Audi & have had zero warranty or reliability issues. Not one single repair on the entire vehicle (as of today - knocking on wood lol), other than replacing the tires and oil changes. It's driven on short trips, long, just like any other vehicle. No special precautions like apparently on the Eco. I'd love to build a rat rod using a diesel (like the 6bt) engine.

Yeah Cantflip, I remember all of the little diesel engines like the Chevy Luv. One of my Dad's friends bought a new VW Rabbit diesel back when they first came out. My Dad would sneak over to his house at night and add a little diesel to it every few days. His friend would brag to everyone about how it got 100 plus mpg. My Dad kept this up for a month and then started siphoning a little out each time on his trips. The mileage dropped down to muscle car territory. The friend went to the dealership complaining about how the mileage several times. No problem found was the diagnose. Of course he told him after a few trips. :)
Dad was a funny man... :rofl:
 
. Both have been wonderful. I really like the diesel on them, besides the fuel mileage, the torque & performance is terrific
I gotta say that the people who don't like diesels usually have never lived with a good one, or one with a turbocharger on it. My father in law has a golf with a 2.0 litre TDI, the car has almost 1/4 million miles on it. The 2 main problems he has had is brake booster and oil pans, the latter being his fault from banging them into stuff.
Dave @70bigblockdodge mentioned the diagnostic skills are lacking out there
I say that mainly because as soon as the particulate filter clogs they slap a 5-6000$ filter on it and out the door. Within 2 weeks it's back with the new one clogged. Now you know it ran fine for the first 400,000 mi without clogging you have to think there is a reason it clogged, maybe just lazy I guess.
 
I gotta say that the people who don't like diesels usually have never lived with a good one, or one with a turbocharger on it. My father in law has a golf with a 2.0 litre TDI, the car has almost 1/4 million miles on it. The 2 main problems he has had is brake booster and oil pans, the latter being his fault from banging them into stuff.

I say that mainly because as soon as the particulate filter clogs they slap a 5-6000$ filter on it and out the door. Within 2 weeks it's back with the new one clogged. Now you know it ran fine for the first 400,000 mi without clogging you have to think there is a reason it clogged, maybe just lazy I guess.
I'll say it again... you'd make a great tech Dave :poke:
 
Hey Bob, are you still considering that Hellcat? If you're not then I won't feel so bad about how badly we hijacked your thread. :thumbsup:
 
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