70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
See everybody loves a Imperial
New Member, 1967 Imperial
- Thread starter bajajoaquin
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What's not to love about an Imperial???
I love Imperials don't know why anyone wouldn't
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
I took my daughter to Balboa Park this weekend. We have a pretty good sized koi pond, and people come to dump their pet turtles in it, so there's usually good stuff to look at. After being driven to day care in it for a while now, she was unimpressed with rolling around town in the Imperial.
She was also unimpressed with the koi. A bigger hit was the botanical garden. Which makes sense, since there was all this stuff, right at eye level to her, and lots of bright colors.
Back on topic.... The brakes are still dragging, and it's getting to me. It has symptoms that indicate it's the master cylinder, but I also fear it's my rebulit calipers. But I won't know until I get the MC replaced anyway, so that's going to be the next set of projects: master cylinder and tie rods. It will probably be a few weeks before I can arrange for the time to get it done, so it will be another period of minimal driving for a while.
She was also unimpressed with the koi. A bigger hit was the botanical garden. Which makes sense, since there was all this stuff, right at eye level to her, and lots of bright colors.
Back on topic.... The brakes are still dragging, and it's getting to me. It has symptoms that indicate it's the master cylinder, but I also fear it's my rebulit calipers. But I won't know until I get the MC replaced anyway, so that's going to be the next set of projects: master cylinder and tie rods. It will probably be a few weeks before I can arrange for the time to get it done, so it will be another period of minimal driving for a while.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Are you sure its not the hoses I know you have some rust issues could it be squeezing at bracket there is a bracket by the caliper? its been a while or at the hose ends rust will sometimes pinch enough to hold pressure and drag. All that said my friend had nothing but problems and heard fwtw of countless problems with those budd calipers, I believe it is due to soft cast iron that gets large pits, this is how stainless steel brakes ssbc got their start sleeving corvette calipers in the piston bores. Your Imperialist buddies might be more help, I don't know if somebody like scarebird can make a bracket to use a more common and reliable caliper on your rotor, or change all of it to more obtainable parts. Sorry to be a downer but for a daily driver that is the direction I would explore.
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
You're exactly right about the hose. I left it out of my summary above for the sake of brevity. I've got two of the three rubber hoses replaced with new. Before I was able to get this kind of work done myself, I paid to have it done, and the guy must have been some kind of idiot not to put in the third hose..... grr. So residual pressure in the lines from worn rubber is absolutely something I'm concerned with.
The symptoms I'm experiencing are dragging brakes and a pedal that goes down while you're holding it at a stop light. My first suspicion was vacuum leak, but I was disabused of this, and pointed to the MC. Also, The FSM lists symptoms and causes, and the only one that fits both my symptoms is the master cylinder. (The dragging brakes could also be caused by the hoses.)
For the symptoms, "Pedal go to floor" causes are:
Fluid low in resivoir
Air in hydraulic brake system
Improperly adjusted brake
leaking wheel cylinders
Loose or broken brake lines
excessively worn brake lining
For Dragging Brakes, the causes listed are:
Incorrect wheel or parking brake adjustment
Parking brakes engaged
weak or broken brake shoe return spring
Brake bedal binding
Master cylinder cup sticking
Obstructed master cylinder relief port
Saturated brake lining
Bent or out of round brake drum
So... looking at this again, "improperly adjusted brake" appears on both, as well.
Although tempting to think in terms of the unifying problem, there's another piece of information: that this didn't start until after I had my rebuilt calipers, new rotors, new pads, turned drums, and brake lines installed. So it's also unlikely that the MC went bad the very same day.
(And none of this is to ignore your comments about routing and old hose ends. And your caliper comments are well taken. I wanted to spend $250 rebuilding the calipers, not $600, so I went with the CarDone rebuild rather than the stainless reboring.)
So maybe, I go with a simpler plan: replace the third hose, and give the system a proper flushing with a quart of fluid. Get all the old gunk out. When I'm in there with the wheels off bleeding, do an inspection and see what I can see. Maybe it's as simple as old hose and improperly bled lines.
How would I go about checking the wheel cylinders to establish if they are failing to release properly?
(sorry about the long post, or at least sorry for thinking while typing, and not before)
The symptoms I'm experiencing are dragging brakes and a pedal that goes down while you're holding it at a stop light. My first suspicion was vacuum leak, but I was disabused of this, and pointed to the MC. Also, The FSM lists symptoms and causes, and the only one that fits both my symptoms is the master cylinder. (The dragging brakes could also be caused by the hoses.)
For the symptoms, "Pedal go to floor" causes are:
Fluid low in resivoir
Air in hydraulic brake system
Improperly adjusted brake
leaking wheel cylinders
Loose or broken brake lines
excessively worn brake lining
For Dragging Brakes, the causes listed are:
Incorrect wheel or parking brake adjustment
Parking brakes engaged
weak or broken brake shoe return spring
Brake bedal binding
Master cylinder cup sticking
Obstructed master cylinder relief port
Saturated brake lining
Bent or out of round brake drum
So... looking at this again, "improperly adjusted brake" appears on both, as well.
Although tempting to think in terms of the unifying problem, there's another piece of information: that this didn't start until after I had my rebuilt calipers, new rotors, new pads, turned drums, and brake lines installed. So it's also unlikely that the MC went bad the very same day.
(And none of this is to ignore your comments about routing and old hose ends. And your caliper comments are well taken. I wanted to spend $250 rebuilding the calipers, not $600, so I went with the CarDone rebuild rather than the stainless reboring.)
So maybe, I go with a simpler plan: replace the third hose, and give the system a proper flushing with a quart of fluid. Get all the old gunk out. When I'm in there with the wheels off bleeding, do an inspection and see what I can see. Maybe it's as simple as old hose and improperly bled lines.
How would I go about checking the wheel cylinders to establish if they are failing to release properly?
(sorry about the long post, or at least sorry for thinking while typing, and not before)
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Yeah if it is sinking at a stop and no visible leaks the m/c is no good so first place to start, can be very dangerous fix NOW change brake hose at same time then see where your at. Do you know which brake/s are dragging, hot wheel/s if its the rear and being that your car from Mn. rust in e brake cables is a common problem with rust belt cars, also contaminated fluid with the residual pressure cables on rear brakes can trap to much pressure, piston can semi seize in wheel cyl but usually leaks. My buddy never had a problem with the cardone Budd calipers sticking they would just wear down pads to a point and start leaking. Those calipers and a lack of funds kept me from buying his car, still kicking myself over that.
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
Good info about the Cardone calipers. If that's the symptom, I can live with it. I have three sets of calipers for the car. I can either take the time next time to rebuild myself, or send them off to get stainless-lined. Nothing like paying $850 for a $600 rebuild to make you feel like you're getting a deal....
And you keep bringing up all these points that extract more and more information....
The parking brake is disconnected. I haven't worried about it, because everywhere I go is flat (and I keep a big rubber chock in the trunk). The lines are there, about half way forward, though. But it's sounding more and more like I should focus on the rear half of the braking equation.
And you keep bringing up all these points that extract more and more information....
The parking brake is disconnected. I haven't worried about it, because everywhere I go is flat (and I keep a big rubber chock in the trunk). The lines are there, about half way forward, though. But it's sounding more and more like I should focus on the rear half of the braking equation.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
I am just putting out there some of the things that rust belt cars do/see because cars don't have this stuff happen to them in San Diego, I know my Barracuda which I bought in the eighties was originally sold at Lemon Grove C.P. every bolt on the car just turns off like it was put on 2 days ago.
BTW does Lemon Grove still have that concrete lemon out there that claims best climate on earth or something like that.
BTW does Lemon Grove still have that concrete lemon out there that claims best climate on earth or something like that.
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
Yeah, it's still there. I haven't read the claim on it, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Keep up the ideas. I'm not complaining. It just gets overwhelming, adding to the list of stuff that needs to get done. Still, I'd rather know about it than not.
Keep up the ideas. I'm not complaining. It just gets overwhelming, adding to the list of stuff that needs to get done. Still, I'd rather know about it than not.
I just read the whole thread and I like your general aproch. I had similar working restrictions while I was in the army and my 55 Pontiac Star Chief was in a similar condition. I did with that car what your buddy did with his bike. Fixed everything, then sold it, then regreted it. I got a wife out of the deal so im not complaining. Beautiful car can't wait to see the rest
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
I thought the joke went, "I got a car for my wife. Pretty good deal, huh?" and not the other way around....
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
So the next round of repairs is creaking slowly into motion. As mentioned on my other threads about those specific parts, I'm looking to replace my tie rod ends and master cylinder next. This is getting some urgency because I am likely to sell my truck, and want to have my Imperial as my driver until I pick up a cheap commuter car. I don't want to wear out my brakes with the constant dragging, nor my tires with the worn tie rods.
And, of course, I want it to be right.
I'll be calling PST to get the tie-rods today, and will also place the order for the master cylinder. I'm going to call PST because they list the part as being specific to the Imperial for that year, but I want to talk to them and be sure.
In the thread (I think in the Slabs forum) on alignment, there was a link to another forum article on alignment specs. I'm thinking of going that way: Increased negative camber and some additional caster. Not much, like the minimum negative camber (0.25") and just a tad more caster. The car is a bit twitchy now on the freeway, but it's hard to tell if that's because other things are out of whack.
Thoughts?
And, of course, I want it to be right.
I'll be calling PST to get the tie-rods today, and will also place the order for the master cylinder. I'm going to call PST because they list the part as being specific to the Imperial for that year, but I want to talk to them and be sure.
In the thread (I think in the Slabs forum) on alignment, there was a link to another forum article on alignment specs. I'm thinking of going that way: Increased negative camber and some additional caster. Not much, like the minimum negative camber (0.25") and just a tad more caster. The car is a bit twitchy now on the freeway, but it's hard to tell if that's because other things are out of whack.
Thoughts?
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
Just got off the phone with PST. I spoke with John, who was helpful and pleasant to deal with. Even though they don't have it listed in their on-line catalog, they have a master cylinder in stock. The manufacturer wasn't listed, but with the FCBO discount it was about the same prices as I've found elsewhere, and maybe a little cheaper.
The tie rod parts were also cheaper than I've found at general auto parts stores, so overall, I think I got the MC for free.
The tie rod parts were also cheaper than I've found at general auto parts stores, so overall, I think I got the MC for free.
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
The process continues to move forward. The parts came in last weekend, and I've set aside Saturday to get some work done. First priority is the master cylinder and brake hose. Once those are in, I'll fully flush the brake system, and hopefully remove any old contamination. I'm really, really hopeful that my brake dragging issues will be resolved. I don't really have a plan B for how to investigate if it doesn't resolve the issue.
One lingering concern I have is that the brakes didn't drag before I got new hoses, new rotors, and rebuilt calipers. If it was the master cylinder, why didn't it do it before? One possibility is that I have two separate issues: brake drag from contamination in the lines, and a falling pedal from the master cylinder. The pedal would fall at a stop before, but I ascribed it to a leaking wheel cylinder. The pedal is firmer, so perhaps that was only half the problem.
After brakes, tie rods are next. I'm going to go buy a puller tomorrow, so I'll have the tools ready to go. With any luck, I'll get through the brakes in a timely enough fashion to be able to get the tie rods done on Saturday as well.
After that? Back to the alignment shop. I should have the car ready for prime time enough to be my main driver while I sell my truck and buy an inexpensive commuter car.
Thanks for putting up with the long post. This is as much about me working through my thoughts as anything else.
One lingering concern I have is that the brakes didn't drag before I got new hoses, new rotors, and rebuilt calipers. If it was the master cylinder, why didn't it do it before? One possibility is that I have two separate issues: brake drag from contamination in the lines, and a falling pedal from the master cylinder. The pedal would fall at a stop before, but I ascribed it to a leaking wheel cylinder. The pedal is firmer, so perhaps that was only half the problem.
After brakes, tie rods are next. I'm going to go buy a puller tomorrow, so I'll have the tools ready to go. With any luck, I'll get through the brakes in a timely enough fashion to be able to get the tie rods done on Saturday as well.
After that? Back to the alignment shop. I should have the car ready for prime time enough to be my main driver while I sell my truck and buy an inexpensive commuter car.
Thanks for putting up with the long post. This is as much about me working through my thoughts as anything else.
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
Well, it's taken some time, but another round of work done today. I swapped out the master cylinder and the last old hose. I forgot my camera, so only have some crappy cell phone pics. I'll see if I can get those up later.
I bled the master cylinder before installation per suggestions here and the FSM. Easy enough to do. The old master cylinder had really really disgusting fluid in it. The new stuff is nice and clean.
My rear hose was a little tough to replace. The spiral wire around the line made the line too large in diameter to get a flare wrench around, and a standard 3/8" just rounded off the corners. Good thing Vice Grips were able to get the line off without crushing it, otherwise I would have been tracking down a new line.
Bleeding the system comes tomorrow morning. I have a fresh quart of brake fluid ready to go, and I'll probably buy a second one before I get started. I'm planning on flushing out the system fully to make sure all gunk is gone.
I really hope this gets rid of the dragging brakes. There's still lots to fix on this car, but the three big ones to make it daily drivable are the brakes dragging, the tie rods, and the passenger side rear window. If I can get the brakes done tomorrow, the other two things shouldn't be major projects.
I bled the master cylinder before installation per suggestions here and the FSM. Easy enough to do. The old master cylinder had really really disgusting fluid in it. The new stuff is nice and clean.
My rear hose was a little tough to replace. The spiral wire around the line made the line too large in diameter to get a flare wrench around, and a standard 3/8" just rounded off the corners. Good thing Vice Grips were able to get the line off without crushing it, otherwise I would have been tracking down a new line.
Bleeding the system comes tomorrow morning. I have a fresh quart of brake fluid ready to go, and I'll probably buy a second one before I get started. I'm planning on flushing out the system fully to make sure all gunk is gone.
I really hope this gets rid of the dragging brakes. There's still lots to fix on this car, but the three big ones to make it daily drivable are the brakes dragging, the tie rods, and the passenger side rear window. If I can get the brakes done tomorrow, the other two things shouldn't be major projects.
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
I have a print-out of the FSM, and I'm pretty well checked out on brake bleeding, but thank you for the suggestion. Every bit helps.
The car got pulled off the jack stands today. I had left it up in case I could get a few hours to replace tie rods... no dice. But it drives much nicer now. There may be some dragging still, but I will have to check the adjustment of the rear brakes and wheel bearings to get any improvement. Basically, I think it's there.
The Bipolar Owner is back on the upswing!
The car got pulled off the jack stands today. I had left it up in case I could get a few hours to replace tie rods... no dice. But it drives much nicer now. There may be some dragging still, but I will have to check the adjustment of the rear brakes and wheel bearings to get any improvement. Basically, I think it's there.
The Bipolar Owner is back on the upswing!
bajajoaquin
Senior Member
Not much to report, other than I washed the car last weekend. I had some help.
Love the picture.
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