3175375
Senior Member
I have similar issues with the rear lower quarter panels on Elwood.
I have been watching the Fitzee’s Fabrications channel on YouTube to learn how to make the repairs.
New Member, New Polara
- Thread starter Stev
- Start date
I have been watching the Fitzee’s Fabrications channel on YouTube to learn how to make the repairs.
Stev
Active Member
So I've been trying to find a rust converter to neutralize the rust on parts I cannot remove or otherwise clean. Recently here in canada our benevolent overlords in the Fed severely restricted household chemicals, making things as mundane as WD40 banned. (They did this by expanding the definition of 'volatile organic compound' to include "participating in atmospheric chemical reactions", which is absurd as it sounds. They could plausibly ban nitrogen for such a crime) All the rust converters are of course phosphoric acid and immediately vanished off the market, even amazon dropped them here.
There is one brand still in stock locally though, Rust Mort, which is 15-25% advertised acid content, at 200 bucks a gallon. However I know of dairy farm acid cleaners at much higher concentration for peanuts. I checked every farm supply place, every industrial cleaner place and any other supplier I could. Nobody carries this stuff. But in the US of course, I can find 85% phosphoric acid at 20 bucks a gallon. Five times the concentration at a 10th of the price off the shelf, come and get it!
After spending the day trying to find a supplier, I found that place, which will ship it to me. But they only sell a palette of 4, and with shipping it'll be 300 bucks for some spicy fruit juice. Still a significant bargain, but boy does it not feel like it.
Y'all yankees don't know how good you got it. I just wish I knew to buy some on my Oregon trip.
There is one brand still in stock locally though, Rust Mort, which is 15-25% advertised acid content, at 200 bucks a gallon. However I know of dairy farm acid cleaners at much higher concentration for peanuts. I checked every farm supply place, every industrial cleaner place and any other supplier I could. Nobody carries this stuff. But in the US of course, I can find 85% phosphoric acid at 20 bucks a gallon. Five times the concentration at a 10th of the price off the shelf, come and get it!
After spending the day trying to find a supplier, I found that place, which will ship it to me. But they only sell a palette of 4, and with shipping it'll be 300 bucks for some spicy fruit juice. Still a significant bargain, but boy does it not feel like it.
Y'all yankees don't know how good you got it. I just wish I knew to buy some on my Oregon trip.
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3175375
Senior Member
Wow. I now know where Kalifornia is getting their lead!
I’m sorry to hear about your troubles, but glad you are able to find a settling solution.
Stev
Active Member
Commiefornia has nothing on the people's democratic fiefdom of Trudauistan, believe me. We're about to make Japan's lost decade look like the golden years.
Stev
Active Member
I did end up finding a domestic supply for rust converts after all. After many phone calls around, I found a domestic product called della Brite -40. 85%+ acid content for 35 bucks canadian a gallon. What a steal. The place I talked to said there's a foaming version for manual cleaning like i'm doing, but I neglected to get a name or product number for it, but I'm assured it's readily in stock at any dairy farm supply. So if you're a fellow chump on this side of the divide, there's the magic ticket. Don't spend 5000% more on whatever eastwood tries to sell you here. Gonna pick up a lifetime supply next time im in town.
Also, is there a specific technique for welding outer rockers? Where the bodyshop replaced that leaded seam where the quarters meet the rocker on the right side, it's rusted right out. I have the rocker stampings from the donor and can patch it but I can't find any specific method anywhere. I know how to modify ladder frames properly with Z cuts and fishplates, so it seems strange to me that rockers are just 'cut and weld'.
Also, is there a specific technique for welding outer rockers? Where the bodyshop replaced that leaded seam where the quarters meet the rocker on the right side, it's rusted right out. I have the rocker stampings from the donor and can patch it but I can't find any specific method anywhere. I know how to modify ladder frames properly with Z cuts and fishplates, so it seems strange to me that rockers are just 'cut and weld'.
Stev
Active Member
Spent all day grinding off bondo. It's 3/8" thick and I've yet to find the end of it, even though the metal is fine behind the door jam. Whatever circus of disgneic clowns did this work sure had a lot of it to burn. They also added some bizzare angle iron re-enforcement to the inside of the quarter panel to support the trim for some reason. The factory trim clips thus didn't work, and the clown solution was to "glue" bolts into the trim with seam sealer and put a nut on the inside of the quarter panel, behind the (theoretically) sealed up wheelhouse and welded it all shut.
Baffling.
Also started cutting away at the inner quarter, primarily to inspect the rocker. i was afraid it'd have it's own problems but thankfully it is immaculate inside. Should be able to brush off the rust on the outside where the bad quarter repair was and be fine.
I have a small (500ml) bottle of Canada Tire rust remover that must be 20+ years old and never opened. It's actually phosphoric acid. I don't think they sell it any more. I used a little bit of it a year ago to prep some metal before painting it. My fingers were stained blue. It took a few days, maybe a week for the staining to fade away. I don't know if this happens any time you work with phosphoric acid or if there was something else going on, but I'd be curious if it happens to you also (I generally don't wear gloves when doing stuff, I know I should but I just don't like wearing them).
I looked up Della Brite and I see some farm supply places that sell it, didn't see any in Ontario, I wouldn't mind getting a gallon of the stuff.
You can still buy hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) by the gallon here, I know it's not the best thing to use for de-rusting but it does work extremely well for that. If you're working on something that can be totally or partially immersed in a bucket or tank of water, then you should try rust removal using electrolysis, with cleaning vinegar as the electrolyte. All you need is an old-school battery charger (or a simple DC power supply), a plastic bucket / container, and vinegar.
For rust removal or surface prep - do you have a sand blaster?
Those laser rust removers look absolutely fantastic, but are very expensive.
I looked up Della Brite and I see some farm supply places that sell it, didn't see any in Ontario, I wouldn't mind getting a gallon of the stuff.
You can still buy hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) by the gallon here, I know it's not the best thing to use for de-rusting but it does work extremely well for that. If you're working on something that can be totally or partially immersed in a bucket or tank of water, then you should try rust removal using electrolysis, with cleaning vinegar as the electrolyte. All you need is an old-school battery charger (or a simple DC power supply), a plastic bucket / container, and vinegar.
For rust removal or surface prep - do you have a sand blaster?
Those laser rust removers look absolutely fantastic, but are very expensive.
Stev
Active Member
I don't know how hydrocloric acid would work. Phosphorous acid works by converting the oxide into iron phosphate, chemically neutralizing the rust.
The sooner those rust lasers can become mass produced the better. We've been wasting our lives this whole time.
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Stev
Active Member
So I can't put it off any further, wheel house is coming out next. I'll be removing the entire wheel house and most of the inner quarter, plus the patch areas at the bottom of the quarter panel, front and rear.
I braced the door jam, braced the rockers laterally, the tail and the weight of the tailgate is supported by two jacks, exactly level. The rocker is certainly strong enough to stay in place with less than 2' of moment from the brace, plus the semi boxed floor section.
The roof and main structural rail under the window will remain in place. Do y'all feel this is strong enough? I can't think of where else to brace, as anything else worth bracing to is coming out. I'm just afraid of the quarter panel bowing at the wheel arch and otherwise going out of square.
Also I got the bondo off the RR corner to see how ****** I was. I discovered that if you hit the bondo with a torch it lets go of the metal and you can scrape it off with a screwdriver. Comes off in sheets really easily, no grinding required, no hellstorm of dust either.
Good news is, the new patch has good metal to weld to, the rust stopped pretty low. The bad news is, it rusted out because the clowns already replaced it once.
Though inversely, I now feel much better about my welding. My self taught 300 dollar craigslist fluxcore welder operation is better than an allegedly professional ICBC approved bodyshop can do. Nice!
I even know better than putting 30 pounds of bondo on a quarter panel to fill a minor problem. I must be the best bodyman who ever lived.
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Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
I don't know about the bracing, but I'm definitely big time rooting for you on this rebuild.
When you get that car back together you will be my new hero.
Stev
Active Member
You know it didn't seem like a scary job to me until everyone started telling me stuff like this
Back in '88 I was doing stuff like this to my '65 Polara, in my dad's driveway, but nowhere near the project you've got.
I was doing oxy-acetylene brazing - my dad always had the tanks and the setup back then for doing stuff. I've never used mig/tig but I would now if I had to do it all over again.
What are you going to use body-filler wise? There's a million video's on YT for that. One guy in particular is a hoot to watch - D.I.Y. AUTO SCHOOL
I was doing oxy-acetylene brazing - my dad always had the tanks and the setup back then for doing stuff. I've never used mig/tig but I would now if I had to do it all over again.
What are you going to use body-filler wise? There's a million video's on YT for that. One guy in particular is a hoot to watch - D.I.Y. AUTO SCHOOL
Just Carbs
Well-Known Member
Maybe not so scary, but the devil is in the details.
Stev
Active Member
I do not have any kit for body/paint so i'm just going to do all the welding/grinding/finishing and dump it at the bodyshop. It'll need buffing beforehand so buddy can match the custom paint properly, i'll probably do that here.
I really want to have it done no later than august for the big car show and cruise here. Even if i have to cruise around with no exhuast, interior or paint, i'll call it a victory.
I know welders are only recently common items but I wouldn't do work on unibody cars with brazing. Minor body repairs maybe, but anything more significant and you get something like this where the primary structural element is lead.
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3175375
Senior Member
You’re doing it right. You will have much satisfaction with it when you are done and driving it! Keep your nose clean and press forward!
Stev
Active Member
Yeah normies don't know the high of cruising around in a sled of your own making. I've been waiting since I was 3 to own it, what's another six months?
Also I'm now seriously looking for some wheel skirts if anyone has some. I can take wheel arch measurements if need be. Let me know.
1965 1966 Dodge Custom 880 polara Monaco FENDER SKIRTS Foxcraft STEEL Used Pair | eBay
Repaired, modified or a car with body work may have difficulty fitting. Pair as shown.
www.ebay.com
I did find these but if anyone has any i'd still be interested in shopping around.
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Stev
Active Member
Here's a view not meant for the eyes of mortal men. There's always one weird spot weld in a strange place you miss until the end.
Weirdly the inner quarter was spot welded to the door jam stamping by the factory. The donor didn't have welds there, or the shape to support it. Canadian car weridness? Who knows. It looks like the inner wheelhouse cut was because they patched the wheel arch and cut straight through the quarter panel and through the wheelhouse. Nice.
Gonna stop that rust on the bottom of the drip rail while i'm in here. Avanti.
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Stev
Active Member
Now I know what all that bondo was for.
I like how you can see they started grinding it down and then decided 30 pounds of bondo was a better idea.
Humming and hawing over if I should actually replace this. I have all the proper patches but apart from the complete lack of finishing this actually isn't too bad. I'm not sure if patching it would improve anything other than being one piece and not 3. Also kind of afraid of taking so much structure out of the quarter at once.
Though inversely i'd weld it in better, it would be cleaner overall, and I do have to patch some of the door jam which is underneath the quarter stamping. Not sure.
I also braced the D pillars to each other, cut out the rest of the inner quarter and some of the floor/shelf today. I'm actually at the part where i have to think very carefully about what I cut out and how. Seems like a tomorrow problem.
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3175375
Senior Member
Have you thought more about how to extract the tailgate, or are you leaving it for now as a structural support?
Stev
Active Member
Yeah i'm leaving it in place. Like i said the hinge mounts are all the way rearward to the point where the filler panel falls off the tailgate into the gap when opened, and the latch plate is adjusted all the way forward. I think the sagging frame pushed the bottom of the sill out and it's now trying to return to where it ought to be, and the gate is keeping it from going too far. It's also keeping it laterally in spec too. Best to leave well enough alone.
Also I have to remove everything else from the bottom and the gate is the only support surface I can jack up. No reason to touch it really.
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