The Horvaths
Young man with a cowboy hat
In what way? Power? Hell no. Longevity? Maybe.
So I want to have a 440 built....
- Thread starter carrman
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carrman
Senior Member
Strokers live shorter lives?
The Horvaths
Young man with a cowboy hat
Depending on stroke - yes. They wear the bore more quickly. You will have to have well over 100,000 miles before anything happens though.
carrman
Senior Member
Well that'll take some time at 3-5k a year.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
Too many, if your knuckles are turning white it's too tight.
livininharrow
Senior Member
whatever you do to the engine put a good set of tti headers and exhaust system on it.
What are your conclusions today carrman? Don't get me wrong when I spoke of my 440. It pulls good but not like my turbo squirt car. When ever I do get behind the wheel of my Fury I say ahhhhhhhh. It is a powerful gentle giant and I absolutely adore it.
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carrman
Senior Member
Not doing headers, but Krautmaster already installed TTI exhaust system.
carrman
Senior Member
Doing a 438 stroker kit in my 383 makes a lot of sense, reuse my intake, distributor, etc. Kinda how I'm leaning.
That sounds great. Not that it is really important but isn't the all up weight of a 383 stroker still abit less in weight that a 440 ? I'm sure it would be like taking ten tons out of an oil tanker...won't make a difference,just curious.
The Horvaths
Young man with a cowboy hat
Actually, It's not uncommon for RB blocks to weigh less than B blocks.
carrman
Senior Member
So, despite efforts to sell me a turn key engine by some, I've decided to yard out the 383 and have the bottom end gone through with a 438 stroker kit from 440 source. I can reuse my Eddie intake, my electronic distributor, and everything else that was 383 specific and still have more power and torque. In addition, I won't have a 383 bottom end just laying around taking up space.
70bigblockdodge
Old Man with a Hat
This thread has gone a lot of different directions. I would stick with your 383 you know it fits in the car, why buy a bunch of brackets, manifolds, distributor to change. Since you are staying exhaust manifolds and your not putting 4.10s in the rear you basically want a solid running car. If you are running 15" wheels a gear change to 2.94 or 3.23 would not hurt, a converter to go with highway rpm as I mentioned. Lastly I think you have a dead low compression ratio, so a smart redo of the bottom end to work with your heads and that cam will probably make a noticeable difference.
As I mentioned earlier I have a set of 906s that measured to a little less than 81 cc on a .030 over 440 (bigger bore and stroke) my pistons are .090 down and with steel shim head gaskets I can barely get 9.5 : 1 with fel-pros I think it went down to 9.3something : 1 someday I will learn to write stuff down but since I am using existing parts all I need is to remember close. The 400 in my Challenger has stock 74 pistons .120 down in the bore and measured out 73cc closed chamber heads and it only has 8.42 : 1 with a fel-pro gasket the engine makes great power with 284/484 Mopar Performance cam but the overlap and low compression have it sucking really badly below 3000 RPM. Although my situation is really bad and carburetor is not helping either I think your low end and tall gears make it not feel really powerful. Do a compression check on it to see how low the numbers are.
As I mentioned earlier I have a set of 906s that measured to a little less than 81 cc on a .030 over 440 (bigger bore and stroke) my pistons are .090 down and with steel shim head gaskets I can barely get 9.5 : 1 with fel-pros I think it went down to 9.3something : 1 someday I will learn to write stuff down but since I am using existing parts all I need is to remember close. The 400 in my Challenger has stock 74 pistons .120 down in the bore and measured out 73cc closed chamber heads and it only has 8.42 : 1 with a fel-pro gasket the engine makes great power with 284/484 Mopar Performance cam but the overlap and low compression have it sucking really badly below 3000 RPM. Although my situation is really bad and carburetor is not helping either I think your low end and tall gears make it not feel really powerful. Do a compression check on it to see how low the numbers are.
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That sounds like a great plan. Makes perfect sense to me all the way around.
Keep us posted,,,
66Newyorker
Active Member
Just my 2 cents. Rebuild your 383. When I rebuilt the 440 for our New Yorker I used a 66 short block with the stock crank that came out of the engine. The block needed to be bored .030 over with cast flat top piston,not recessed, the crank only needed a polish. A set of 906 heads with hardened exhaust sets and positive valve seals installed. Check out my post it also has a couple of videos.
Doing an engine swap
Doing an engine swap
max1196
Member
Checked up on the components of the 438 kit. Rod stroke ratio looks good, piston pin location looks like there still might be something left of the skirt length. Now, when talking to these guys could you find out if a "step dish" style piston can be had for this combo. This reasoning is for the choice of cylinder head, the step helps fill up the open chamber portion of the head to help turn it into a functional quench, and the dish or flat part with the valve notches will then be at a normal height. Compression ratio will have to be asked about for an end result.
When it gets to the machine shop part of things, make sure that shop has access to a torque plate. The big block is one of the most sensitive to block distortion, I've measured as much as 1.8 thou change in cylinder bore size after undoing the torque plate. If they don't have a plate they can be rented from BHJ. or maybe borrowed from another shop.
When it gets to the machine shop part of things, make sure that shop has access to a torque plate. The big block is one of the most sensitive to block distortion, I've measured as much as 1.8 thou change in cylinder bore size after undoing the torque plate. If they don't have a plate they can be rented from BHJ. or maybe borrowed from another shop.
carrman
Senior Member
My chosen machine shop has a Mopar guru and a big block torque plate.
moper
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This threads a little off track...lol
I've built these combos before: 438, 451, 470, & 496 B wedges; 505, 512" RB wedges using my own sourcing for parts, and kits from 440 Source and Muscle Motors. There are many variables to these choices and a lot of possibilities and paths to the same goal. So here's my take:
1. The heads you have will work for any factory displacement, and some of the smaller stroker packages. To greatly simplify things try looking at it this way - a 383 to 496 is a jump in displacement of about 33%. A factory head flows about 220cfm. So you need 33% more flow to retain the performance potential of the new size. That means a 496 needs about 300cfm of intake port flow. You need 33% more carb, and 33% more cam. So the heads you have will work for 438, or 451" packages. That being said - the best packages for pump fuel rely on exploiting modern theory using properties of squish and tumble - otherwise known as quench. An open chambered head needs a lot of work to work on a quench-built engine. IMO it's more important to build for quench than to use heads you have.
2. Longer, non-factory stroke engines do wear out faster. But it's not the bores that wear. The pistons are much shorter. That means there is much less surface area on the skirts to deal with the added side-loading. It also means less support to maintain the rings' relationship to the cylinder wall especially at TDC, where holding pressure is critical. So the rings wear faster, and the pistons wear. The last 496 B wedge I did is closing on 17K of hard, abusive miles. It is starting to show signs of wear (oil use) although no other issues are present. I'd expect something of that type to last 20-30K. The taller the piston, the longer the life. A 438 or 451 will last like any factory displacement.
3. Cost factor is the same as the rest... I live in the most expensive state in the union and use the best shop I could find. I don't ask how much. I say "I want this done". So these are pretty "unique to me" costs. A 1hp/inch engine (say, 380-400hp 383) will cost around $16/hp. A 1.2hp/inch engine (say, 460hp 383) will cost about $16.30/hp. In terms of factory stroke packages the bigger the engine the less dollars per hp need to be spent to get the bigger power number. Any non-factory stroke will cost more. How much more depends on a lot, but again simple math based on the 383 would be a 1.2hp/inch 496 should make about 590hp, and would cost around $16.90/hp or around $9900. A 1hp/inch 496 will cost slightly less. Performing strokers are not cheap. If you're worried about the cost, you're much better served building the 440 as a 440. But for a modern build, using middle of the road parts, and consisting of everything new but the block, crank, and rods you're going to spend $6500+.
4. Exhaust manifolds are a hinderance, but not a huge one. What their use means is that the camshaft has to be a custom unit by a designer that specializes in their usage. That 496 one stock appearing at carlisle and in that form also put 490hp to the rear wheels. With headers and a larger carb it makes 530 to the tire. Same camshaft. A custom solid flat tappet unit by Porter Racing Heads in VT.
So you need to determine where you are money wise, and where you want to be power wise, then talk to your machinist to formulate a package that will get you there.
I've built these combos before: 438, 451, 470, & 496 B wedges; 505, 512" RB wedges using my own sourcing for parts, and kits from 440 Source and Muscle Motors. There are many variables to these choices and a lot of possibilities and paths to the same goal. So here's my take:
1. The heads you have will work for any factory displacement, and some of the smaller stroker packages. To greatly simplify things try looking at it this way - a 383 to 496 is a jump in displacement of about 33%. A factory head flows about 220cfm. So you need 33% more flow to retain the performance potential of the new size. That means a 496 needs about 300cfm of intake port flow. You need 33% more carb, and 33% more cam. So the heads you have will work for 438, or 451" packages. That being said - the best packages for pump fuel rely on exploiting modern theory using properties of squish and tumble - otherwise known as quench. An open chambered head needs a lot of work to work on a quench-built engine. IMO it's more important to build for quench than to use heads you have.
2. Longer, non-factory stroke engines do wear out faster. But it's not the bores that wear. The pistons are much shorter. That means there is much less surface area on the skirts to deal with the added side-loading. It also means less support to maintain the rings' relationship to the cylinder wall especially at TDC, where holding pressure is critical. So the rings wear faster, and the pistons wear. The last 496 B wedge I did is closing on 17K of hard, abusive miles. It is starting to show signs of wear (oil use) although no other issues are present. I'd expect something of that type to last 20-30K. The taller the piston, the longer the life. A 438 or 451 will last like any factory displacement.
3. Cost factor is the same as the rest... I live in the most expensive state in the union and use the best shop I could find. I don't ask how much. I say "I want this done". So these are pretty "unique to me" costs. A 1hp/inch engine (say, 380-400hp 383) will cost around $16/hp. A 1.2hp/inch engine (say, 460hp 383) will cost about $16.30/hp. In terms of factory stroke packages the bigger the engine the less dollars per hp need to be spent to get the bigger power number. Any non-factory stroke will cost more. How much more depends on a lot, but again simple math based on the 383 would be a 1.2hp/inch 496 should make about 590hp, and would cost around $16.90/hp or around $9900. A 1hp/inch 496 will cost slightly less. Performing strokers are not cheap. If you're worried about the cost, you're much better served building the 440 as a 440. But for a modern build, using middle of the road parts, and consisting of everything new but the block, crank, and rods you're going to spend $6500+.
4. Exhaust manifolds are a hinderance, but not a huge one. What their use means is that the camshaft has to be a custom unit by a designer that specializes in their usage. That 496 one stock appearing at carlisle and in that form also put 490hp to the rear wheels. With headers and a larger carb it makes 530 to the tire. Same camshaft. A custom solid flat tappet unit by Porter Racing Heads in VT.
So you need to determine where you are money wise, and where you want to be power wise, then talk to your machinist to formulate a package that will get you there.
moper
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I'll add - ALL aftermarket parts need to be at minimum inspected by a qualified person before any usage. 440 Source product (and Edelbrock, some Eagle, and Scat) may need various operations to make the parts perform as intended. I do not trust the suppliers doing the balancing. I have yet to have a set of Source rods that didn;t need some form of correction before I considered them good enough. Nor have I had a crank from them taht did not have some taper and out-of-round issues. They were all within factory specs, but some were right on the line. That being said I've never had to turn one. The parts are good value. Theyare not premium parts.
BigFury
Well-Known Member
Hmm, alot of info exchanged on this thread. All good technical, experienced knowledge shared by great wrenches. At the end of the day, personal choice here, I would never waste my time or money stroking a 383 to get 438 c.i. just to get a '440' For one the block architecture in a 383 isn't that stout ( excellent read on 440 source web site detailing Mopar blocks and a 400 is the best factory block period.) With those iron heads you have, totally cool that you scored them from Petty's garage btw, which I would use too. Freshen the stock stroke 383 with an upgraded piston KB 162s work well in a 383. You can go 1 step higher in a cam but not much as Mopar B engines are easily over cammed. TTi headers are great parts but cost $700, Headman shorty's are good compromise. Get a little looser converter with more gear like a 3.55 and it'll run good. Or better yet you can put together a new 440 short block with basic good parts for about 4 grand and also use those heads and pick up a good used dual plane manifold, $100, with a complementary cam and it'll pull like a train with a 3.23 gear. As Dave mentioned 9.1 is really the limit on pump gas with iron heads. Id do a solid 440 and save my pennies for a nice set of aluminum heads down the road. Once you start building 500"+ motors that make big power you have to spend money down the rest of the drive line. **** breaks!
That yellow Fury the Horvaths just bought is a monster and it's a stock stroke 440 if I'm not mistaken??
Sorry if I've reiterated something that's been mentioned already. I'm late to the party on this thread and thought I'd throw in my 2 bits. Good luck on your build regardless of what you choose to do, keep having fun!
That yellow Fury the Horvaths just bought is a monster and it's a stock stroke 440 if I'm not mistaken??
Sorry if I've reiterated something that's been mentioned already. I'm late to the party on this thread and thought I'd throw in my 2 bits. Good luck on your build regardless of what you choose to do, keep having fun!
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