67 Fury 440 Engine Problems

[65Fury440]

To answer the first part of your question we believe it does, the 2nd part of your question yes the coil does produce spark when stalled.

You guys have really been through the ringer with this problem. If you would care to start a series of Youtube diagnostic assistance vids, you can show us what you are seeing.

I'll bet you a nickle this could be sorted out in an afternoon by the minds here.

 

[jcslocum]

To circle back to the advanced cam timing:

After reading this, what fuel are you running?? What Octane?? Maybe try some Octane boost in the fuel and take it for a spin?

Have you pulled a plug and tested compression??

What Happens When You Advance Camshaft Timing?

Not to be confused with ignition timing advance, advancing a camshaft will change the timing of the valve events in relation to where the crankshaft is positioned. Advancing ignition timing causes the spark plug to fire earlier whereas an advanced camshaft will cause the intake and/or exhaust valves to open and close earlier in the engine cycle. Changing either affects engine performance, but a camshaft that is properly installed in an advanced position can noticeably improve performance.

Four-Stroke Valve Events
Four-cycle engines perform an intake, compression, power and exhaust stroke in each cycle. Each cycle requires two complete crankshaft revolutions. The camshaft, which controls the action of the valves, rotates at half the crankshaft speed. The camshaft controls the movement of the engine valves. The intake and exhaust valves are precisely timed to open and close based on the camshaft's influence and each has it respective actions.

Intake Event
The intake valve opens slightly before the piston is at the top of the cylinder. As the piston moves down, air and fuel are drawn in. Shortly after the piston begins rising again, the intake valve closes for the compression cycle. Ignition takes place when the piston nears the top of the cylinder bore (TDC--or top dead center).

Exhaust Event
Once the air/fuel mixture has been ignited, the piston is forced down on the power stroke. Shortly before the bottom of piston travel (BDC), the exhaust valve begins to open. As the piston returns to TDC, the exhaust is forced past the open exhaust valve and the cycle repeats.

Effects of Cam Advance
Advancing a camshaft from its original position causes all of these valve events to happen earlier in the cycle. A camshaft advance of 4 degrees will cause each opening and closing event to occur four degrees sooner than before, changing the ability of the cylinder to build pressure. For example, if the intake closing event is designed to happen at 55 degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC) it will now close at 51 degrees ABDC, or 4 degrees earlier. The same is true of the exhaust events--they will happen 4 degrees earlier, even though they don't happen until after top dead center (ATDC) of piston travel.

Effects on Cylinder Pressure
Although all valve events occur earlier, the greatest impact of an advanced cam is to close the intake valve sooner in the compression stroke. This means that a greater volume of air and fuel gets trapped and compressed before being ignited and has the effect of creating more torque and power. However, if too much pressure builds up, extreme heat can cause pinging (detonation). Advancing cam timing can require the use of higher octane fuels in order to avoid this.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I would like to see data. All this speculation and not one damn value of any type.
I understand that you area young man and trying to learn, been there done that. Shotgunning parts and making up problems is not getting to the root of what's causing the problem. There are a lot of wise men on here and like Doug mentioned can diag this in minutes but hard numbers is needed. Vacuum reading, timing map, compression check and fuel pressure reading at idle and at 2000 rpm.
2 degrees of timing advance is not going to increase cylinder pressure to that extent unless it is already 14:1. I wish it worked that well my 400 in my Challenger would be more lively blow 3000rpm.

 

[65Fury440]

 

[FURYGT]

I would like to see data. All this speculation and not one damn value of any type.
I understand that you area young man and trying to learn, been there done that. Shotgunning parts and making up problems is not getting to the root of what's causing the problem. There are a lot of wise men on here and like Doug mentioned can diag this in minutes but hard numbers is needed. Vacuum reading, timing map, compression check and fuel pressure reading at idle and at 2000 rpm.
2 degrees of timing advance is not going to increase cylinder pressure to that extent unless it is already 14:1. I wish it worked that well my 400 in my Challenger would be more lively blow 3000rpm.

SportFury70 is a young man trying to help his step-dad out. His step-dad is a good mechanic but this is his first time with high performance stroker so there is a learning curve. His step-dad and I have been friends for more than 40 years. They are running super-unleaded gas in the car, at least 91 octane and it is fresh gas.

Everyone's help is greatly appreciated. Sadly, these problems are beyond my mechanical skills and knowledge but I am trying to help SportFury70 with posting information.

Questions:

Could too much fuel pressure be causing a problem? There is no fuel pressure regulator between the electric fuel pump and the high performance mechanical pump. Could too much pressure into the mechanical fuel pump cause a problem with the mechanical fuel pump? Just a thought as I know that my stroker with an electric fuel pump feeding the mechanical fuel pump it has a fuel pressure regulator installed before the mechanical fuel pump. Wish I could recall what that pressure was but that was 4-5 years ago.

Could not using a true high performance ignition module be a problem in not providing the "spark" that this engine needs?

Could a bad ballast resistor that once it heats up reduces the voltage to the coil be the problem?

Thanks!

 

[65Fury440]

He said it was getting spark to the coil when it would not restart, so the ignition is working to that point.
The next step from there would be pulling off the air cleaner and seeing if the squirters are squirting fuel.
There just needs to be diagnostic steps done in order to work back to the problem.

Don't listen to all the things it COULD be, KNOW you are getting fuel, KNOW you are getting spark to the plugs.

The most likely problem is going to be a most likely problem, not some obscure thing.

The fact that these guys tore down an engine rather than diagnose the problem screams they need help, so hopefully OP listens to some good advice going forward.


I would happy to help OP on the phone when you are ready to tear into this again, just send me a PM.

 

[Big_John]

Could too much fuel pressure be causing a problem?

Too much pressure would bypass the needle and seat and flood the carb. So... Yea, it's not good... Is it causing this problem? I don't think so, but we're all doing this from miles away, so who knows.

 

[SportFury70]

I would happy to help OP on the phone when you are ready to tear into this again, just send me a PM.

Thank you for the help and advice, we are going to try 2 more things first then we will go from there. I will keep you updated

 

[Big_John]

Could not using a true high performance ignition module be a problem in not providing the "spark" that this engine needs?

That might be an issue at high RPM, but not like this. The ECU and distributor have been changed, and nothing has been said about it breaking down while driving the car hard, so I doubt it.

Could a bad ballast resistor that once it heats up reduces the voltage to the coil be the problem?

Ballast resistor either works or it doesn't. They've had spark, so it should be good. With heat, resistance does increase, but they get hot from electrical resistance and not from the engine.

 

[volksworld]

i'm just curious...what was the basis of the last guy who looked at the car to conclude that it destroyed a piston? compression test? leakdown? cylinder balance?and which cylinder did he say was bad? or did he just randomly pull this diagnosis out his butt?....cause whatever he saw, if it still exists could help point you towards a diagnosis...while the heads were off did you fill the ports with solvent and see if there were any leaks? not on mopars in particular but i've seen holes in castings that caused intake leaks into the valley where you cant exactly spray carb cleaner to pick it up....did you check the damper and verify if tdc is actually tdc...seen dampers where the outer ring rotated out of position...think this is either something too simple like a ballast resistor or distributor or a new defective part that doesnt normally have issues like heads or camshaft...pinging is normally too hot... usually from too lean or wrong timing but cooling jackets that are not flowing could cause one hot cylinder (casting blocked or never machined in the first place)

 

[FURYGT]

i'm just curious...what was the basis of the last guy who looked at the car to conclude that it destroyed a piston? compression test? leakdown? cylinder balance?and which cylinder did he say was bad? or did he just randomly pull this diagnosis out his butt?....cause whatever he saw, if it still exists could help point you towards a diagnosis...while the heads were off did you fill the ports with solvent and see if there were any leaks? not on mopars in particular but i've seen holes in castings that caused intake leaks into the valley where you cant exactly spray carb cleaner to pick it up....did you check the damper and verify if tdc is actually tdc...seen dampers where the outer ring rotated out of position...think this is either something too simple like a ballast resistor or distributor or a new defective part that doesnt normally have issues like heads or camshaft...pinging is normally too hot... usually from too lean or wrong timing but cooling jackets that are not flowing could cause one hot cylinder (casting blocked or never machined in the first place)

To save time I will respond on behalf of the car owner as I know what is going on. A very experienced mechanic whom I know well and who has worked on some of my cars tried a know working ignition system on the car without any changes. He also did several other tests and eventually pulled the oil pan and determined that piston rings were essentially too tight in the bores causing excess friction once the engine reached operating temperature.

The diagnosis was never that a piston was destroyed.

Checking the damper and verify if tdc is actually tdc & if the outer ring rotated out of position is something to check as is determining if any cooling jackets that are not flowing. I am sure that SportFury70 will pass this along to his Step-dad.

 

[SportFury70]

Checking the damper and verify if tdc is actually tdc & if the outer ring rotated out of position is something to check as is determining if any cooling jackets that are not flowing. I am sure that SportFury70 will pass this along to his Step-dad.

I did indeed pass this along to him, he told me and I quote that, "they were all checked when we had the engine out to hone the cylinders and were fine.

 

[SportFury70]

To circle back to the advanced cam timing:

After reading this, what fuel are you running?? What Octane?? Maybe try some Octane boost in the fuel and take it for a spin?

Have you pulled a plug and tested compression?

Fuel is 93 octane pump gas. A compression test was performed

 

[SportFury70]

Questions:

Could too much fuel pressure be causing a problem? There is no fuel pressure regulator between the electric fuel pump and the high performance mechanical pump. Could too much pressure into the mechanical fuel pump cause a problem with the mechanical fuel pump? Just a thought as I know that my stroker with an electric fuel pump feeding the mechanical fuel pump it has a fuel pressure regulator installed before the mechanical fuel pump. Wish I could recall what that pressure was but that was 4-5 years ago.

Could not using a true high performance ignition module be a problem in not providing the "spark" that this engine needs?

Could a bad ballast resistor that once it heats up reduces the voltage to the coil be the problem?

Thanks!

There is no pressure between the electrical and mechanical pumps. No pressure can cause problems with the mechanical fuel pump. There is not a high performance module in and it goes like a bat outta hell, and it is not a bad ballast resistor it is working

 

[70bigblockdodge]

Fuel is 93 octane pump gas. A compression test was performed

And the values are?


What was the ring gap after honing.
What was the ring gap before honing. That's a not great error being too tight. If you get it running well enough a good long pull at WOT will stick the rings and snap the piston off at the lands. That's why it is always warned to go bigger than smaller.
I'm rooting for you, but we have nothing to go on.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

There is no pressure between the electrical and mechanical pumps. No pressure can cause problems with the mechanical fuel pump. There is not a high performance module in and it goes like a bat outta hell, and it is not a bad ballast resistor it is working

So the electric is feeding the mechanical? That's fine but if there is no pressure while the engine is__________?
A. Off
B. Idle
C cruise RPM
D. WOT

A. That's a problem, is the pump working and where is the fuel going if it is.
B. That's a problem because the electric can't even keep up with the mechanical at idle
C. See above and add more fuel demand.
D. If all the above are a problem this is definitely not going to work.

 

[FURYGT]

There is no pressure between the electrical and mechanical pumps. No pressure can cause problems with the mechanical fuel pump. There is not a high performance module in and it goes like a bat outta hell, and it is not a bad ballast resistor it is working

I am confused on the fuel pressure response. There should be pressure between the electric fuel pump and the mechanical fuel pump if they are hooked up in line (like mine are). There is a reason the Rhett aka Stumpy put a fuel regulator between my electric and mechanical pumps.

Note Big John's response:

Too much pressure would bypass the needle and seat and flood the carb. So... Yea, it's not good... Is it causing this problem? I don't think so, but we're all doing this from miles away, so who knows.

 

[rags]

he is a mechanical engineer

there's the problem!

 

[volksworld]

fury gt i mean no disrespect to your friend that looked at the car...but back in post #26 the kid stated that a piston had failed and the engine had to come apart to fix it...then later posts (like 35) stated they pulled it apart and seemed suprised that the pistons looked fine...later they said they were gonna mike everything to see if anything was wrong....at no point in this thread did anyone say that the guy who looked at it gave a diagnosis that the piston to wall clearance was too tight... and evidentally honing it bigger didnt cure it....so we can only base our replies on the information we are given

 

[FURYGT]

fury gt i mean no disrespect to your friend that looked at the car...but back in post #26 the kid stated that a piston had failed and the engine had to come apart to fix it...then later posts (like 35) stated they pulled it apart and seemed suprised that the pistons looked fine...later they said they were gonna mike everything to see if anything was wrong....at no point in this thread did anyone say that the guy who looked at it gave a diagnosis that the piston to wall clearance was too tight... and evidentally honing it bigger didnt cure it....so we can only base our replies on the information we are given

No disrespect taken. The young lad, SportFury70 misunderstood and was incorrect in posting that a piston failed. This is why I have been posting in this thread to ensure that things get explained properly as he is still learning and understanding things. This is my friend's car and I have spoken with him several times. SportFury70 is his step-son.

They were initially concerned that the bores might be scored, the rings damaged and possibly a damaged piston. I have spoken directly to the owner of the car several times so I have a good understanding of what is going on and what has been done. I am convinced that there is another problem in addition to the hopefully fixed the piston to cylinder wall clearance.