Dont wanna burn up my car
- Thread starter Rosco
- Start date
Rosco
Active Member
IT's funny, I didn't really have the wiring on my radar when putting together a plan to get the Fury sorted out, mainly just parts/components. I appreciate all the great advise here and will put together an electrical tool stash- wires and connectors I can get down there and go through the charging system.
It does get chilly in the desert at night and my reality is I gotta go down a 9 mile washboard road to get home. The washboard is the primary reason the Fury lives in Mexico, actually, as the engineers back in the 60's didn't know it but they developed the absolute best vehicle on planet earth for rolling over washboard. Floats like a butterfly. My Toyota rattles my brain cells doing the same thing no matter how low the tire pressure. And, of course, there are the ever-present, standard open-range, never ever eff-ing go to sleep vacas (cows) roaming all over with choya stuck to their faces so I have to take it easy. Hence the low rpm cruise right before putting her to bed each night.
I don't have any Mopar buddies- guys who have cars like mine so not a lot to compare with in person but through all the years of driving the Fury I always assumed anybody's Fury would have the same characteristics as mine- when driving at low rpm, dim lights and a drain on the battery. Is what I'm getting here from all sides that if/when I do the electrical charging system tests and correct the problems, I'll be able to cruise along at 20 mph for 10 miles and have bright lights and no battery drain (with stock parts)???
You said it Saylor, "most alternators don't kick in until 1000 rmp or so on the alternator pully". Could be with what I'm doing each night (a LOT of nights) even with a properly functioning 1968 318 charging system I'll need to do something else- different alternator. I think I've read that the cars with A/C came with 60 amp units? Maybe that's all I need (after running the tests)??
All I know is I like my goofy ammeter and everything stock about the Fury and would like to keep it that way if possible. Hell, maybe I just adjust the idle to 900 and bring 6 sets of brake shoes with me and ride the brakes all the way home!!Boom, done!
Rosco
Active Member
Hey Big John,
I am getting in deep with the service tech. write up, GREAT info.!!! I am learning much. Still trying to get the whole system straight in my head but that is a great resource, thanks!
You mentioned a go-around for not using a carbon pile to test under load? I'd be interested to hear how that works. Meanwhile I'm reading up on the charging system and gearing up to do a bunch of testing. I have an analog multi-tester and Mexican electrical circuit analyzer (bulb on an alligator clip) and am thinking about a fire extinguisher to round out the tool kit. But hopefully I can discover an issue or 10 that can be addressed before something goes bad.
I do need an alternator though. Stock or high-output, I need to have something as my old one sounds like the Fred Flintstone lunch siren and has changed it's metal composition- white and chalky. No bueno. Knowing what you know about my situ do you have any recommendations on what to bring down??
Glad to see you are getting something out of it. There's a wealth of info aimed directly at our cars. Sometimes you have to understand that the Miller specialty tools they mention aren't available or seem to be made of gold if you do find them, but most have good "work arounds" or substitutes.
An analog multi-tester and a test light will always serve you well. I suggest adding a DVM, digital voltmeter to the collection. It doesn't have to be a high end, even the lowly Harbor Fright versions will do the job nicely. The digital versions really aren't any better, but offer some slightly faster results without having to figure out what scale you are on etc. In other words, they are easier to use.
Regarding the alternator.... If you have a heavy whine, that means a bearing, usually the front (nearest the belt) is going bad. That, and a bad diode(s), are the usual failures.
The method I use for testing a PRE 1970 CHARGING SYSTEM (for those with a 1970 or later, it's slightly different and I can elaborate if needed)
Take a voltage reading at the battery with everything off. The battery needs to be fully charged. You should have 12.6 volts.
Disconnect the dark green field wire at the alternator.
Run a jumper wire from the field connection on the alternator to the 12 volt output on the alternator.
Connect voltmeter to battery
Turn on headlights (this creates a load)
Start the car, and take a reading at the voltmeter at idle and one at around 1500-2000 RPM
If the voltmeter reads 14+ volts, the alternator is good, but the voltage regulator (or wiring) is bad.
If the voltmeter is still ~12 volts, the problem is in the alternator.
This duplicates the test procedure in the FSM, except you are using the headlights instead of a carbon pile to load the system.
A couple other things to think about.
First, if you haven't already, a factory service manual is your friend. Download one here. MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Service Manuals I like to print out pages and highlight/underline etc. as needed for my use. With electrical troubleshooting, a highlighter and couple of printed copies of the wiring diagram can't be beat.
One thing about how your car is behaving... I grew up with these cars and in an area where we have a real winter. Cold and snow (average 10 feet per season). It wasn't unusual to drive the car home from work in a snowstorm, heat going, radio, lights and wipers on, without any issues. Now, the nature of the beast (then and now) was the lights might dim a little at idle, but they would perk back up as soon as you started moving. All this and get back in the car and have it start at zero degrees (f) the next morning to do it all over again. All the mods that we see written about here, like headlight relays and ammeter bypass, didn't happen. The cars just did the job. So, IMHO, the first thing to do is always whip them back into shape so they are capable of doing what they are designed for, then make them better.
Regarding replacing your alternator (and it sounds like that is needed), I don't have a good suggestion. I tried a Power Master and that failed out of the box (bad bearing) . I wouldn't hold that against them as much as the abysmal customer service I got afterwards that turned me off. I'm just glad I bought it from Amazon and it just went back and as Mom used to say F... them. I've rebuilt most of the ones I've used.
I do suggest that you do the upgrade to an electronic voltage regulator, if that hasn't already happened. From what I've seen, the over the counter replacements may be electronics these days. @FURYGT sells a nice one that looks like the OEM or there's a #VR706 regulator made by Wells and sold by AutoZone (and probably everyone else) that does the trick, but looks a little different. Buy two, one spare for the trunk.
Here's another video I love sharing, but I don't know if anyone watches. It's about voltage drop and how to measure it.
OK, there's the long winded post I promised.... I had some spotty internet yesterday, so I was hesitant to sit down and do this. This morning, it's quiet, except for the dog snoring and everything seems to be working as it should.... Ahhh.... Now to get back to the business of being retired.
saylor
Senior Member
i chose a 60a reman duralast 7001 alternator
go read this post - Can’t get an alternator to put out a charge
go read this post - Can’t get an alternator to put out a charge
Rosco
Active Member
Fantastic info you guys, much thanks!!
I do have a hard copy (printed) manual for my car. I fricking love it. It's fun to look at even when not working on the car.
I used to have an "Idiot's Guide to Working on your VW" years ago which was also a good, GREAT read. Hilarious.
Anyway, got the manual and it stays with me when working on the Fury.
Thanks for sharing the story about daily driving under major electrical load back in the day. Sounds like your mopar did it's job and without any modifications. That's the point I'd like to get to. Lights can dim just don't leave me sweating the morning startup cuz I've only got about 12 seconds of turnover before the battery quits...
I'll go with the 60 amp alt. My car never had A/C. Are we looking at upgrading wire gauge to accommodate a 60 amp alt?? If
I have a new regulator- got it at O'reilly's last year and I'll double-check but pretty sure it is the solid state type.
It'll be interesting to see how the Fury behaves after going through the charging system. I have a feeling we'll be back to the dim lights but am hoping the battery holds sufficient charge throughout.
thanks again.
I do have a hard copy (printed) manual for my car. I fricking love it. It's fun to look at even when not working on the car.
I used to have an "Idiot's Guide to Working on your VW" years ago which was also a good, GREAT read. Hilarious.
Anyway, got the manual and it stays with me when working on the Fury.
Thanks for sharing the story about daily driving under major electrical load back in the day. Sounds like your mopar did it's job and without any modifications. That's the point I'd like to get to. Lights can dim just don't leave me sweating the morning startup cuz I've only got about 12 seconds of turnover before the battery quits...
I'll go with the 60 amp alt. My car never had A/C. Are we looking at upgrading wire gauge to accommodate a 60 amp alt?? If
I have a new regulator- got it at O'reilly's last year and I'll double-check but pretty sure it is the solid state type.
It'll be interesting to see how the Fury behaves after going through the charging system. I have a feeling we'll be back to the dim lights but am hoping the battery holds sufficient charge throughout.
thanks again.
saylor
Senior Member
i would run all new wire with 50a fuses on each end 10ga stranded wire with proper crimping with a tool not a pair of pliers.
i also run the FURYGT voltage regulator. i had one fail DoA and he sent me a replacement no questions and ive been good since. good lad over there FURYGT.
i also run the FURYGT voltage regulator. i had one fail DoA and he sent me a replacement no questions and ive been good since. good lad over there FURYGT.
Mopar singular? Ha... That's funny... I had a bunch of them and they were often just this side of hitting the crusher. Salt has its way with electrical systems and doing things like shorting a salt corroded starter relay with a quarter while waiting for a day when it was warm enough (and not snowing etc.) to actually change it or plugging in a new (or used) headlight dimmer and not being able to screw it to the floor because there was no floor to screw it to was typical in my youth.
But I digress...
You might have some other issues going on here.
First, continually discharging the battery shortens the life. What happens inside a lead acid battery when it discharges is lead sulfate builds up on the plates inside the battery. Even small discharges do this, but recharging the battery dissolves the sulfate and all is good. The problem is when you discharge the battery too much, then the sulfate crystalizes and that isn't so easy to dissolve. After it builds up too much, the battery is no good.
So, I'm wondering if you are having a discharge problem elsewhere in the car too. One culprit that comes to mind, and may fit here, is a bad diode in the alternator. I wouldn't say that there couldn't be anything else though... and you also could just have a bad battery.
I again turn to this guy for video advice, although he doesn't address a bad diode in a Mopar alternator. Not where his target audience is.
BTW, he's a molecular biologist in real life, so anything he says about Covid-19, listen to it.
Rosco
Active Member
OK, overwhelmed with information at this point. Links, videos, parts to digest. Killer information and much appreciated. This will take me some time.
My suspicion is that when all is working properly on the Fury charging system, with my situation- a lot of low rpm driving at night, my challenge will be to figure out how to boost the system to have better (more) charge at LOW rpm.
With a stock 318 running properly would anyone suspect that driving with accessories on at low-ish rpm would put a drain on the battery? Could the solution be a high-voltage alternator? If so, I've been hearing about frying wires/my car isn't equipped to accommodate a high-voltage (north of 100 amp) alternator. Would the answer be bigger wires??
I know everyone wants me to test it out first. I PROMISE that I will do that. But, very little feedback regarding my specific issue- I drive at night like a little old lady with accessories on- is it not normal, under those conditions, for the battery to be low the next day? The one bit I have leaned since diving into the "don't want to burn up my car" adventure is that the ammeter shows when the alternator is supplying power vs. the battery (d- side of the scale, on the ammeter). I have a feeling that unless your idle is set super high, anyone who drives like that would be seeing their ammeter needle to the left of center and be putting a drain on the battery. I don't have the luxury of testing it out first. I need to plan ahead.
Any how to get a good charge at low rpm threads come to mind?
My suspicion is that when all is working properly on the Fury charging system, with my situation- a lot of low rpm driving at night, my challenge will be to figure out how to boost the system to have better (more) charge at LOW rpm.
With a stock 318 running properly would anyone suspect that driving with accessories on at low-ish rpm would put a drain on the battery? Could the solution be a high-voltage alternator? If so, I've been hearing about frying wires/my car isn't equipped to accommodate a high-voltage (north of 100 amp) alternator. Would the answer be bigger wires??
I know everyone wants me to test it out first. I PROMISE that I will do that. But, very little feedback regarding my specific issue- I drive at night like a little old lady with accessories on- is it not normal, under those conditions, for the battery to be low the next day? The one bit I have leaned since diving into the "don't want to burn up my car" adventure is that the ammeter shows when the alternator is supplying power vs. the battery (d- side of the scale, on the ammeter). I have a feeling that unless your idle is set super high, anyone who drives like that would be seeing their ammeter needle to the left of center and be putting a drain on the battery. I don't have the luxury of testing it out first. I need to plan ahead.
Any how to get a good charge at low rpm threads come to mind?
A little lesson in electrical terminology... You aren't looking at high "voltage" alternators. Alternators make AC (alternating current, just like your house) and it's rectified through the diodes to DC (direct current).
A high output alternator is capable of putting out more current or "amperage". Because the alternator is putting out more current, the voltage in the battery and system is staying where it should.
One of the things that the guys get kinda right and kinda wrong is that the high output alternators put out that high current all the time. They only put out as much current as needed. So some of the worry about doing the bypass when you add a high output alternator is good, but if your car never really draws that current, well, the wiring will never be taxed (and the higher output never needed either).
But, again, it's a good idea and I'll never tell anyone not to do it. It's a safe option.
I really think you want/need a plan... You want to show up with a trunk full of stuff and just fix it all and solve everything. I can appreciate that approach...
So... Let's shotgun a few things first.
1. Replace all the battery cables. I've seen so many problems here and then I look and I see that the battery terminal is one of those clamp on temporary POS terminals that you pull off the cardboard in Autozone. A woodscrew or two jammed in is always a nice touch... Sorry... off on a rant... Replace the cables. While you are at it, get those little red and green felt washers that go under the help the new ends from corroding. I always use those. The point being that battery cables are cheap, easy to replace and often an overlooked problem.
2. Seriously, what shape is the battery in? How old? Is it stored on a trickle charger now? Can you get a replacement there easily? Consider going to a group 27 battery (larger capacity) rather than the original group 24. It's longer, but it'll fit. BTW, I just had to buy a new battery for my little Ford Ranger the other day. Costco blew everyone out of the water on price.
3. It really sounds like you need to replace the alternator and I think you've committed to that. Thinking about it, maybe the 100 amp nuclear option is the way to go. I know you aren't running A/C etc., but you are taxing the system and I don't think that 100 amp aftermarket piece would be any more money than the 60 amp rebuild. Just don't get a chrome one. I hate chrome alternators.
4. Buy a spare voltage regulator. Your choice, the VR-706 above is a good spare option and if after replacing everything, the problem persists, or you determine the replacement you have already installed isn't an electronic version. If all is well, a spare riding around the trunk in Mexico doesn't sound like a bad idea.
5. Get all the pieces together to do the bypass. Yep, I know... I said check everything first, but I've gotten it through my thick skull that this is a "let's just fix everything" scenario. It's just some wire, a fusible link (yes, a fusible link) and a few terminals. Easy to do with good results.
6. Mount a voltmeter in your car. This will give you all you need to know about the charging system as you drive. Don't want to mount one? Buy one that plugs into the cigar lighter. I use one of those myself... Came in real handy the other day diagnosing the bad battery in my truck.
There ya go...
Rosco
Active Member
I appreciate the support. One thing to keep in mind is that I do not want to bypass my ammeter. Got to keep the goofy ammeter. It's part of my Fury driving experience.
You are right when you say, "You want to show up with a trunk full of stuff and just fix it all and solve everything." I should add that no one's tripping on the price of things. That being said if I need to put in a 300 dollar alt. it is money well spent in my mind. I'll be sourcing the new battery down there- gonna go Optima as we've had issues with regular batteries on the washboard simply breaking with all the vibrato. Even though the Fury floats like a fricking blue bird on a cloud over the washboard I feel like the Optimas can rally back from a low discharge better than other types- not that this will be a problem from regular driving for me after the diagnosis and fixes
but there are times that the Fury sits for a while w/out a charger. Not important.New cables= yes. Felt buddies= yes. I will make sure and have two solid state regulators in hand when crossing the border.
This is like the best advice I've been given as to how to make the charging system perform correctly. And I will follow all the steps- once I've had a chance to learn them but in an effort to plan ahead I keep going back to my original query:
Am I right or am I right when I say that under my driving conditions [low speed at night with stuff on] it is normal for the battery to be discharged, even with the charging system working per spec?? It's not normal driving- I'm idling down a bumpy dirt road with moo-moos popping into the frame like bugs on your windshield. I've got to go muy slow- no chance for the old charging system to charge! Wouldn't anybodies car drain the battery driving like this? I think so.
Saylor mentioned looking at a curve graph on the alternator's performance. Maybe this should be my focus when shopping for a new alternator? I feel like maybe I should post again, "need help charging car at low speeds!"
I agree the whole charging system needs a good going through but afterwards I feel like the next challenge will be to figure out a way to charge under low rpm. Any thoughts, anybody?
As far as chrome goes, I'm thinking of chroming the whole engine bay (they'll do this in Mexico for cheap,believe me) and also I found a lead on a trunk accessory that I plan to have chromed as well (see below).
Just kidding!! That's so hilarious- on the same page, I fricking hate chrome parts on stock older cars!! It's kind of like a bum wearing a Rolex- not that old mopars are bums just the out of place factor. It just aint right. I really appreciate a tidy engine bay with period-appropriate painted parts. Go throwing a chrome master cylinder in the mix and it's like, HUH?
If you have a souped-up motor that does wheelies, go for it! I appreciate that too...
3175375
Senior Member
On a lighter note:I appreciate the support. One thing to keep in mind is that I do not want to bypass my ammeter. Got to keep the goofy ammeter. It's part of my Fury driving experience.
You are right when you say, "You want to show up with a trunk full of stuff and just fix it all and solve everything." I should add that no one's tripping on the price of things. That being said if I need to put in a 300 dollar alt. it is money well spent in my mind. I'll be sourcing the new battery down there- gonna go Optima as we've had issues with regular batteries on the washboard simply breaking with all the vibrato. Even though the Fury floats like a fricking blue bird on a cloud over the washboard I feel like the Optimas can rally back from a low discharge better than other types- not that this will be a problem from regular driving for me after the diagnosis and fixes
New cables= yes. Felt buddies= yes. I will make sure and have two solid state regulators in hand when crossing the border.
This is like the best advice I've been given as to how to make the charging system perform correctly. And I will follow all the steps- once I've had a chance to learn them but in an effort to plan ahead I keep going back to my original query:
Am I right or am I right when I say that under my driving conditions [low speed at night with stuff on] it is normal for the battery to be discharged, even with the charging system working per spec?? It's not normal driving- I'm idling down a bumpy dirt road with moo-moos popping into the frame like bugs on your windshield. I've got to go muy slow- no chance for the old charging system to charge! Wouldn't anybodies car drain the battery driving like this? I think so.
Saylor mentioned looking at a curve graph on the alternator's performance. Maybe this should be my focus when shopping for a new alternator? I feel like maybe I should post again, "need help charging car at low speeds!"
I agree the whole charging system needs a good going through but afterwards I feel like the next challenge will be to figure out a way to charge under low rpm. Any thoughts, anybody?
As far as chrome goes, I'm thinking of chroming the whole engine bay (they'll do this in Mexico for cheap,believe me) and also I found a lead on a trunk accessory that I plan to have chromed as well (see below).
Just kidding!! That's so hilarious- on the same page, I fricking hate chrome parts on stock older cars!! It's kind of like a bum wearing a Rolex- not that old mopars are bums just the out of place factor. It just aint right. I really appreciate a tidy engine bay with period-appropriate painted parts. Go throwing a chrome master cylinder in the mix and it's like, HUH?
If you have a souped-up motor that does wheelies, go for it! I appreciate that too...
View attachment 429019
Rosco
Active Member
Haa!! good stuff!
No, it's not normal. I guess that didn't get answered.
As far as the ammeter... Well, doing the bypass does leave the ammeter in play, but since the current is now split, it doesn't react as much because you aren't pulling as much current through it to keep the battery charged. Now what you are seeing is the current draw of your accessories. So, it does still work, but the needle won't move as much.
I get it... I have to have my clock tic rather the sweep of a quartz conversion. It's part of the character. Some guys love bias tires too. In this case, it's a compromise and choice to make.
IMHO, if you want to leave the stock wiring in place, so you can keep the ammeter, let's think about changing what you do.
1. Change the cables.
2. The battery still needs to be addressed. Again, group 27 would be my choice.
3. Scaling back on the nuclear option to a 60 amp or so would probably do the trick anyway. Maybe even less.
4. You have the VR covered
5. The bypass is just some wire, some terminals and a fusible link. ~$20 tops. Might be an idea to bring the stuff with you and make the decision there after being there. It's always reversible and having a spare fusible link is not a bad idea either.
6. Voltmeter. Yep, it'll tell you a lot... For example... If you've been driving, as you say, and you think the voltage on the battery is down, take a quick look at the voltmeter and if the voltage is down, fast idle the car with everything off for a few minutes to bring the battery up. Again, a cigar lighter version works as well as any.
7. And here's where we go into making the original stuff work. Cleaning up the contacts on the bulkhead connector etc. is probably a really good idea. This is one of the reasons that I've seen some do the bypass as a bandaid. Start by unplugging the connections at the firewall and cleaning them using this. https://smile.amazon.com/CAIG-Labor...t&qid=1610129079&sprefix=de+o,aps,212&sr=8-26
Some will now tell you to pack it with dielectric grease, but look up the word "dielectric" and it means insulator. They are using it wrong and it should be just spread around to seal the insulator IF you really feel the need to use it. But you really don't. The thought is that the dielectric grease moves out of the way with contact, but from my knowledge, that's really only true with contacts that have a lot of spring tension in the contact. These contacts don't. BTW, I'm not going to debate that with anyone.
A good, but inexpensive, Mexican Mopar resto going on in this thread. Some good reading.
Project "Chihuahua" '65 Formula S Restoration "Estilo Mexicano"
Rosco
Active Member
"No, it's not normal. I guess that didn't get answered."
I think this is the first direct answer I've gotten regarding, "is it normal at low rpm and stuff going for the battery to get drained"
Thank you. That's actually really inspiring/hopeful news. Looking forward to getting there.
But then again after re-reading your post you say in #6 to fast idle to bring the charge up... that shouldn't happen, right?
Yes 1, yes 2, 3... I might contact suppliers about their model's low rpm output but maybe the non-nuclear option is a good fit.
I'll check out the Chihuahua link, sounds interesting!
And just to be clear, you think go ahead with the chrome whale tail?
I think this is the first direct answer I've gotten regarding, "is it normal at low rpm and stuff going for the battery to get drained"
Thank you. That's actually really inspiring/hopeful news. Looking forward to getting there.
But then again after re-reading your post you say in #6 to fast idle to bring the charge up... that shouldn't happen, right?
Yes 1, yes 2, 3... I might contact suppliers about their model's low rpm output but maybe the non-nuclear option is a good fit.
I'll check out the Chihuahua link, sounds interesting!
And just to be clear, you think go ahead with the chrome whale tail?
Rosco
Active Member
I think what I've got is kind of like if I were a cop sitting at a stake out with the engine running, heat blasting and radio on. Well, not a stake out cuz he wouldn't have his lights on but if you take a 1968 Fury 2 with a 318 and idle and blast the heat, turn the lights on and the radio wouldn't the battery discharge? Unclear after your last post due to the part in #6.
Maybe seriously it's as easy as setting the idle fast and riding the brakes?
Maybe seriously it's as easy as setting the idle fast and riding the brakes?
3175375
Senior Member
Some police cars had a fast idle or throttle handle on them. Others that are more familiar with the police car options and equipment will probably chime in.
Rosco
Active Member
interesting option. I will look into this. Be nice to have a throttle handle that you could do on the fly.
saylor
Senior Member
a fast idle will fix you. when you are stationary. it will help for sure. thats exactly why the HD vehicles had it.
you can bump up your idle speed a scosch too. you can put a smaller ALT pulley.
find a ALT with the lowest curve you can. You want it to come on asap.
say your ALT kicks on at 1200rpm ALT speed. if its 2:1 that means 600rpm motor speed.
you just got to find the sweet spot.
you can bump up your idle speed a scosch too. you can put a smaller ALT pulley.
find a ALT with the lowest curve you can. You want it to come on asap.
say your ALT kicks on at 1200rpm ALT speed. if its 2:1 that means 600rpm motor speed.
you just got to find the sweet spot.
That's correct, but in the real world, stuff does happen.
Honestly, you are traveling at slow speed, it has to be above an idle or the car isn't going to move. Correct?
I figure that we have a very good chance of fixing your problem. BUT!!! Here's the challenge. The car's in Mexico. The car's problems are being described to us over the internet. We are all a bunch of armchair mechanics who aren't driving down a dark road at low speed in Mexico in a 55 year old car, so it's real easy for us to say "this is the answer!" and stand back all proud and stuff... It's another to actually do it. And for all you know, I'm really a dog that can type and my advice is just a lucky guess.
So, it's an easy "cover your butt" check that you'll want to do the first time you make that drive. Maybe the second and third time too... Until you have confidence in the charging system to just turn the car off.
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