No-Start with New Ignition

[77newyorker440]

Rather than take a chance that you are getting it right, find the TDC mark on the dampner, crank the engine until that mark aligns with the zero timing mark. Now the rotor should be pointed at #1 cylinder, if it's not, give the engine one more crank to the zero mark and now it will be.

This is really basic stuff that you need to do first.

Now put the number #1 plug wire in the cap where the rotor points. Going counter clockwise, follow with #8 etc. 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2.

If it runs, check and set with your timing light. (You do have a timing light? Correct?)

And that's assuming that the distributor isn't in 180 degrees out.

Okay, could someone send a picture of what the TDC mark on the balancer looks like? Also, on the timing cover, I have the degree notches and then a large U. Where is TDC on that? I do have a timing light, Innova brand I believe, have not gotten to use it yet though.
Thanks,
77newyorker440

 

[Big_John]

Okay, could someone send a picture of what the TDC mark on the balancer looks like? Also, on the timing cover, I have the degree notches and then a large U. Where is TDC on that? I do have a timing light, Innova brand I believe, have not gotten to use it yet though.
Thanks,
77newyorker440

The groove is the TDC mark on the damper.

Timing marks:

Take a piece of blackboard chalk and scrub it across the damper slot and then across the timing marks. Wipe it with a rag and you'll see the marks better.

 

[77newyorker440]

Okay, so I switched the plugs all one over and got it to start, have it set at 8 degrees advanced. But the problem continues. Warmed it up, got it to idle perfectly. However, then I hit the brakes and realized I had no vacuum. Tightened up the carb bolts, now it will not start unless the throttle is really cranked open.

 

[CBODY67]

Before you started this "excursion", did you verify that the timing chain had not "jumped", or just believed that the ELB was the issue? Reason I mention the timing chain is that one afternoon, back in the middle 1970s, I was at the local Chrysler dealership when a TX DPS officer brought in a '73 Fury III patrol unit which was not running well. He described the operating issues to the old-line Chrysler service manager. It was running (as they had had a hard time getting it to start). It was idling rougher than normal. The service manager went over, loosened the dist hold-down bolt, then twisted the distributor to advance it "one plug wire's worth" and the engine smoothed out and ran better. Diagnosis? Timing chain had jumped one notch. Basically, he did what you did, but by rotating the distributor body rather than individually changing the wires in the cap.

IF your engine has not had the timing chain changed, it probably needs it anyway. Back when your car was
"a used car", any stock timing sprocket with close to 80K miles was usually on borrowed time. That your car is now OLDER can be an issue too, even with fewer miles, to me.

As you mentioned that you only swapped the distributor, I suspect you did not remove the oil pump drive item into which the distributor indexes? I believe there is a particular "installed position" for the slot in the shaft when at TDC, somewhere in a FSM or similar? To verify TDC, you can remove the LH valve cover, rotate the crank until the mark lines up with "0" on the timing tab. If at "firing" TDC, both of the valves (intake and exhaust) should be closed. If they are not closed, turn the crank another turn until they are.

Please keep us posted . . .
CBODY67

 

[thethee]

@CBODY67 may be on to something. I went back to one of your previous threads which could very well indicate a jumped tooth:
Finally Converting the Lean-Burn: Final Checklist

Good Morning Guys,
I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!! My Chrysler unfortunately did not, as all of the sudden, it has begun running extremely poorly, backfiring, bucking, and stalling constantly. Due to this, I think it is time to get rid of the lean-burn system.

I think you can check for slack in timing chain by rotating the engine by hand while observing the rotor for movement.

Someone with more experience than me should be able to help you further diagnose this issue.

 

[77newyorker440]

Okay, a few questions. 1) how would changing hmfuzujf the vacuum leaks affect its ability to run in relation to the timing chain? 2) about how long would it take to replace the timing chain, seems like a really involved job

 

[CBODY67]

It could well be that the performance issues you were seeking to fix was actually the timing chain getting ready to fail. On my '80 Newport 360, it had gotten a little "soft" in throttle response and power, nothing major, but enough that I started to notice it. I started to check things and they all were good. Next thing was the ESC computer (Electronic Spark Control is basically what ELB became after the "lean burn" orientation was superceded by additional mechanisms and cat converters were on everything). I'd had a reman Chrysler-source computer for a few years, so I installed it. It ran a bit worse with it, so the orig computer went back on. Later that day, on the way to our Mopar club show, I turned a corner and the car died. Would not restart. So I called some friends to trailer it to my shadetree shop for a later look-see. Later took it to another friend's shop to get it fixed and running again . . . many months later. Timing chain set was installed.

Worst thing about doing a timing chain replacement is getting all of the "external dress" of the motor removed so you can get the timing cover removed. Which requires taking the crank balancer off, too. IF you've never done one, probably best to let a shop do it. Quicker that way, if it's the only car you have to drive as doing it the first time can take a good bit of time. ALSO best done in a secure, enclosed building! A place where you can do things slow enough as this WILL be a learning experience. Then, after a few hours, close and lock the door, each time, until everything's done. Whereas in a mechanic shop environment where they have all of the needed tools and such, with experience in doing the job, it can happen in a few hours and you're back on the road. WITH a shop warranty on their work and the parts they used.

Just some thoughts,
CBODY67

 

[thethee]

Okay, a few questions. 1) how would changing hmfuzujf the vacuum leaks affect its ability to run in relation to the timing chain? 2) about how long would it take to replace the timing chain, seems like a really involved job

1) Don't quite understand your question

2) I'm in no way an expert mechanic like some around here and hadn't done this before but decided to do it myself. Mostly cause hiring a shop wasn't in the budget. For me this turned into a full winter project BUT to be fair, that's cause it quickly snowballed into something much larger as I ended up removing basically everything but the heads. Cleaning, painting, and resealing everything as I went on. Could've done it quicker but I really enjoyed it and certainly learned a lot.

 

[77newyorker440]

1) Don't quite understand your question

2) I'm in no way an expert mechanic like some around here and hadn't done this before but decided to do it myself. Mostly cause hiring a shop wasn't in the budget. For me this turned into a full winter project BUT to be fair, that's cause it quickly snowballed into something much larger as I ended up removing basically everything but the heads. Cleaning, painting, and resealing everything as I went on. Could've done it quicker but I really enjoyed it and certainly learned a lot.

That is my bad on the first question, typed that immediately after I woke up. I am just wondering how sealing the vacuum leaks (tightening carb, sealing off vacuum tees on intake) could stop its ability to run and how that would relate to the timing chain. I do agree that it probably needs a timing chain, but I am not sure how the vacuum and timing chain issues connect. That is relieving to hear that it is not too difficult to change

 

[CBODY67]

It's not that the engine does NOT have manifold vacuum, just not enough of it to run the power brakes. Just be glad there are apparently no bent valves! Which would be much more probably if the engine had a higher compression ratio (piston top closer to the valves when the valve is fully open).

Doing the timing chain set replacement is not really "hard" to do, BUT you must ensure that all of the architectural relationships are correct when doing the job. That the correct cyl is on the compression stroke at TDC, for example. As you apparently didn't remove the oil pump drive, all of that should be "factory set" and good, I suspect. Then ensuring that you accurately assemble and place the timing sprockets, too. (Good thing the cam has a locating dowel pin on it!) NO Rocket Science, but attention to detail!

Enjoy!
CBODY67

 

[1978 NYB]

Before you started this "excursion", did you verify that the timing chain had not "jumped", or just believed that the ELB was the issue? Reason I mention the timing chain is that one afternoon, back in the middle 1970s, I was at the local Chrysler dealership when a TX DPS officer brought in a '73 Fury III patrol unit which was not running well. He described the operating issues to the old-line Chrysler service manager. It was running (as they had had a hard time getting it to start). It was idling rougher than normal. The service manager went over, loosened the dist hold-down bolt, then twisted the distributor to advance it "one plug wire's worth" and the engine smoothed out and ran better. Diagnosis? Timing chain had jumped one notch. Basically, he did what you did, but by rotating the distributor body rather than individually changing the wires in the cap.

IF your engine has not had the timing chain changed, it probably needs it anyway. Back when your car was
"a used car", any stock timing sprocket with close to 80K miles was usually on borrowed time. That your car is now OLDER can be an issue too, even with fewer miles, to me.

As you mentioned that you only swapped the distributor, I suspect you did not remove the oil pump drive item into which the distributor indexes? I believe there is a particular "installed position" for the slot in the shaft when at TDC, somewhere in a FSM or similar? To verify TDC, you can remove the LH valve cover, rotate the crank until the mark lines up with "0" on the timing tab. If at "firing" TDC, both of the valves (intake and exhaust) should be closed. If they are not closed, turn the crank another turn until they are.

Please keep us posted . . .
CBODY67

Okay, a few questions. 1) how would changing hmfuzujf the vacuum leaks affect its ability to run in relation to the timing chain? 2) about how long would it take to replace the timing chain, seems like a really involved job

Another "problem" you have to keep in mind is the timing gears on Formal's had nylon gears on the timing gears to reduce noise on Formal's. Every time that I took the timing cover off on a Formal I found some of the nylon teeth laying in the bottom. Sometimes there is enough teeth broken off that the timing jumped.

I went and looked at a 77 NYB in Indiana off of Facebook. It said 77 NYB $1000. Engine will crank and won't start. The owner thought it was a blown engine. The exterior was rusted out everywhere including the hood. The interior was perfect. I was only after the interior. He was asking $1000 and I gave him $500. I still have that interior in my 78 NYB. For the hell of it I pulled the timing cover off and there was a bunch of teeth laying in the bottom. It jumped time. I went to the local AAP and ordered an all steel timing set for $35. I put it the timing set in and it ran like a champ. I sold the engine/txsm for $600 and sold the rest of the car to a recycler junkyard for $100. So I made $200 and got a cherry complete interior for my NYB for free.

 

[Big_John]

My Chrysler unfortunately did not, as all of the sudden, it has begun running extremely poorly, backfiring, bucking, and stalling constantly. Due to this, I think it is time to get rid of the lean-burn system.

Things like the lean burn ignition and carb don't just suddenly break and cause those issues. In fact, those would probably be very low on the list of possible failures of that type unless there was a very obvious issue. The symptoms do suggest a possible timing chain/timing sprocket failure. They have some inherent weak points, especially as they age and the plastic fails.

What has happened is you've thrown parts at a problem that happened without verifying what was causing your problem.

Now you've still got the original problem and you've compounded it by adding more, unknown parts to the mix, possibly adding their own set of challenges. You still have to figure out what is wrong and caused the problem in the first place.

So, here's the advice I'm going to give and then I'm done. First, buy a Factory Service Manual and start getting familiar with it. Realize that firing the parts cannon at the car without a little research is just foolhardy. Finally, you are going to have to look at and check one thing at a time. You got lucky with moving the plug wires, but checking TDC first is very, very simple and would have told you that the plug wires were off.... and you would have learned something in the process. Quite frankly, you may need to think about having a pro involved at this point as now we are talking about much more work and opportunity for error if it actually is a timing chain.

IMHO, someone needed to say this to you and there are times the only way to get that across is to be brutally honest, and if I offend you, c'est la vie.

I do sincerely wish you good luck.

Big John has left the building.

 

[commando1]

This is really basic stuff that you need to do first.

 

[77newyorker440]

Things like the lean burn ignition and carb don't just suddenly break and cause those issues. In fact, those would probably be very low on the list of possible failures of that type unless there was a very obvious issue. The symptoms do suggest a possible timing chain/timing sprocket failure. They have some inherent weak points, especially as they age and the plastic fails.

What has happened is you've thrown parts at a problem that happened without verifying what was causing your problem.

Now you've still got the original problem and you've compounded it by adding more, unknown parts to the mix, possibly adding their own set of challenges. You still have to figure out what is wrong and caused the problem in the first place.

So, here's the advice I'm going to give and then I'm done. First, buy a Factory Service Manual and start getting familiar with it. Realize that firing the parts cannon at the car without a little research is just foolhardy. Finally, you are going to have to look at and check one thing at a time. You got lucky with moving the plug wires, but checking TDC first is very, very simple and would have told you that the plug wires were off.... and you would have learned something in the process. Quite frankly, you may need to think about having a pro involved at this point as now we are talking about much more work and opportunity for error if it actually is a timing chain.

IMHO, someone needed to say this to you and there are times the only way to get that across is to be brutally honest, and if I offend you, c'est la vie.

I do sincerely wish you good luck.

Big John has left the building.

No worries buddy, this is my first time with a project car so I still know I have a lot to learn. However, I did actually take time to address your suggestions. In order to find TDC, you need to rotate the crank with a breaker bar or ratchet. However, due to the size of the fan and fan shroud, it is not feasible to get a socket and breaker bar (with or without an extension). Additionally, the reason I targeted the ELB first was because there is nothing I've heard more with this car than people telling me (especially at Carlisle) that the computer was bound to fail and should be replaced immediately. The carb was replaced because I was told that an ELB carb would not work with a standard ignition system. Finally, all of this happened at the same time that my mechanic tuned the carb during inspection, leading me away from thinking that it is the timing chain as opposed to the carb and ELB. I also do have a Service Manual, I just like to use he forums because you all have the experience that I lack. Thanks for the help sir

 

[77newyorker440]

Any specific brand good for timing chains? IIRC, cloyes makes a good product

 

[Big_John]

Good attitude! I have hope for you! LOL!

Most likely, you are looking at going from underneath to turn the crank.

Here's a quick and easy timing chain check.

 

[ayilar]

@77newyorker440 -- we met at Carlisle last year, and I was impressed by your enthusiasm and interest in learning. So was everyone who met you there -- it is rare that young Mopar enthusiasts can impress this group of folks, and yet you did.

I was therefore surprised that you seemed to not really be listening to all the really knowledgeable folks who have tried to help you in this thread. I was not sure if you could see it but, one by one, you were driving them away (including some really patient folks like @cbarge and @Big_John) because you were doing things in the wrong order and/or incorrectly, despite what had been suggested. (Edit: I am glad to see in today's posts that I may have been wrong in my impression).

Just my two cents. I am not trying to offend you, but to help you. Feel free to ignore my comment. And, regardless, good luck.

 

[77newyorker440]

@77newyorker440 -- we met at Carlisle last year, and I was impressed by your enthusiasm and interest in learning. So was everyone who met you there -- it is rare that young Mopar enthusiasts can impress this group of folks, and yet you did.

I was therefore surprised that you seemed to not really be listening to all the really knowledgeable folks who have tried to help you in this thread. I was not sure if you could see it but, one by one (including some really patient folks like @cbarge and @Big_John ), you were driving them away because you were doing things in the wrong order and/or incorrectly, despite what they have suggested. I am glad to see that I may have been wrong.

Just my two cents. I am not trying to offend you, but to help you. Feel free to ignore my comment. And, regardless, good luck.

My apologies, sir, I do not mean to come off as brash or stubborn. Honestly I have had a really rough week outside of this car and this has just added to my stress. I apologize for this, and I hope I haven't angered anyone.
Really the big thing that kills me is that I bought this car just to drive it to school and have fun and it has honestly ran like a top right until the week before I got my license. Could it be worse timing? Again, I'm really sorry about all this, and I appreciate all the help, especially that of @CBODY67, @Big_John, and @cbarge, but to hear that the car has a serious problem such as a timing chain is just a huge blow to my motivation. I still will go about changing the timing chain, but this last month has been awful for the car. Lost a fuel pump, passenger door lock cylinder, and apparently a timing chain all in the span of one month.
Either way, I'll do the timing chain test tonight and report my results.
Thank you all for the help,
77newyorker440

 

[thethee]

Don't be discouraged! The car potentially has a timing chain problem, cross that bridge when you get there.

FYI, the shroud and fan are held in place with four easy to reach bolts each (if I'm not mistaken) so it should be relatively easy to remove them and from there you have plenty access for a breaker bar to turn the engine over by hand.

 

[Big_John]

Soon Grasshopper, you'll be able to snatch the pebble from one of our hands.