I realized today that I don’t like my wagon.

[67Monaco500]

Been down that road before and I feel your pain. I will go back to your original post and my feeling is that fuel injection would solve that problem...period. Electric pump and fuel on demand as needed as determined by electronics smarter than most regular people, such as me.

I struggled with hard hot staring in my Dart and in a few friends Mopars for years. The only thing short of fuel injection that worked was an electric pump, aluminum intake and a Holley carb......if you are not worried about originality, which I assume you are not if you are considering fuel injection.

My Dart has a 700 double pumper on it with no choke. I key it over to start the pump when cold and give it 2 pumps and it starts in about 1 second even when in freezing temps, and it idles on its own in about 15 seconds. When hot, no matter how long it's been sitting or how hot it is, I give it maybe 1/8 throttle and it lights up in an instant....every time.

Not a big fan of the Thermobogs.

Either way, I hope you find a solution so you can enjoy your ride.

 

[69PHOENIX]

Hi Fellas,
Just a Comment.
I might be Imagining Things BUT it Seems that there have been a Hell of a Lot more Vehicles catching Fire since they started putting Ethanol in the Fuel.
I mean I'm over 70 YO and for the Life of me I can't Remember having Anywhere near the Number of Car Fire Scenarios we are having Now a Days.
Turn on the News and at Least once a Week we hear of another Vehicle catching Fire in Peak Hour Traffic, and that's just in my Local Area.
Tony.M

 

[Davea Lux]

Hi Fellas,
Just a Comment.
I might be Imagining Things BUT it Seems that there have been a Hell of a Lot more Vehicles catching Fire since they started putting Ethanol in the Fuel.
I mean I'm over 70 YO and for the Life of me I can't Remember having Anywhere near the Number of Car Fire Scenarios we are having Now a Days.
Turn on the News and at Least once a Week we hear of another Vehicle catching Fire in Peak Hour Traffic, and that's just in my Local Area.
Tony.M

One of the joys of of high pressure injection systems is that if anything leaks, you have an instant inferno.

Dave

 

[saforwardlook]

Although your TQ has been professionally rebuilt, one thing I would check is to see if the bowl vent is adjusted correctly and open to atmosphere when the carb is at idle position. If it is closed when the engine is hot and at idle since it is shut off, it will cause fuel vapor to accumulate in the engine and cause hard starting. I also agree with the proposal of installing a hi-torque mini starter that spins the engine over much more quickly just to hasten the process.

I also don't see why use of the thick carburetor base gasket would hurt either even though the fuel bowl is phenolic, which I doubt really helps hot soaks very much. Rather they are prone to cracking over time and when the engine is shut off, it wouldn't surprise me if a minor crack opens up a little and drips fuel into the intake. TQs either work or they don't has been my experience and I have been hard pressed to figure out why some just won't perform correctly, but I think it has to do with the phenomenon that I am describing.

 

[413]

There isn’t anything wrong with the starter. It needs the fuel system fixed. Stay focused here people and stick to the problem.

Yeah I know the carb is all goofy but I’ll just spin the engine over faster to clear the flooded intake and just keep driving her that’s way, washing down the cylinders every time I shut her down.

Jesus chrystler you guys and you mini starters. Talk about sounding stupid. If I wanted a Genuine nippon denso sound i’d have bought a damn Toyota.

I bought a big block mopar and it will have the Highland Park chirp or I ain’t gonna drive it.

Fix your junk and it will start easily with the correct sounding slow spinning boat anchor original starter the car was made with. Then you can drive off with points distributor, and tapered roller bearings on the rear axles while watching the factory amp meter jump back and forth and then settle on discharge.
under the Dim dash lights at the next stop sign.

Other than that it’s a great idea.

 

[71Polara383]

I knew it would ruffle someone's feathers

 

[69PHOENIX]

Not to Disagree with Some But....
Nothing Cheers My Old Heart More than the Sound of a Gear Reduction Starter on a Big Block Mopar!
The Day may come when I am Forced to Fit a Modern S/Motor But Until Then.
Tony.M

 

[saforwardlook]

There isn’t anything wrong with the starter. It needs the fuel system fixed. Stay focused here people and stick to the problem.

Yeah I know the carb is all goofy but I’ll just spin the engine over faster to clear the flooded intake and just keep driving her that’s way, washing down the cylinders every time I shut her down.

Jesus chrystler you guys and you mini starters. Talk about sounding stupid. If I wanted a Genuine nippon denso sound i’d have bought a damn Toyota.

I bought a big block mopar and it will have the Highland Park chirp or I ain’t gonna drive it.

Fix your junk and it will start easily with the correct sounding slow spinning boat anchor original starter the car was made with. Then you can drive off with points distributor, and tapered roller bearings on the rear axles while watching the factory amp meter jump back and forth and then settle on discharge.
under the Dim dash lights at the next stop sign.

Other than that it’s a great idea.

Sure you can have your old original starter grind slowly away trying to start your hot engine that now uses fuel that has ethanol in it these days when it didn't originally in the 1970s and enjoy while your battery prematurely wears out delivering all the excess cranking amps repeatedly and then enjoy lifting the old boat anchor starter in and out more times than needed compared to the mini-starters for the momentary mind blowing pleasure you get from hearing the old mostly out of sight thing try to do its job under conditions not present in the 1970s.

I suppose you also still use your original 50 year old bakelite heater control valves that also crack unknowingly while you are driving and leak all your coolant out before you might realize you have just overheated your engine in the middle of nowhere and then totally enjoy the pleasure of finding help. And to top it off, you can even just rely on your engine cold/hot lights (if you don't have gauges originally) as well and not install a relatively inconspicuous temperature gauge below the instrument panel that would also make it non-original but give you some early warning.

Some of us like using other options to make the driving experience more enjoyable even if not strictly original overall while others enjoy their suffering and their dim/flickering dash lights and overheated engines. You can't even find a 35 amp alternator unless you just savor the joy in rebuilding your original one anymore and using an original voltage regulator is just ecstacy when exact duplicate looking electonic ones are available to mostly eliminate the problems.

But I see nothing amiss with using original points rather than electronics that seem to cause more problems over time than the points unless the latter are made in China. I also keep the tapered roller bearings because they are more durable than the green ones.......................etc.

and it also goes without saying that fixing a problem is the best solution for situations like being discussed here.

 

[GoodEnuf]

Going away from the deadhead fuel delivery system will minimize vapor lock issues.


Video on the cheapest way I have found to do it.

 

[bnz84]

Get one of those infrared thermometers and look for hot spots after shut off. Point it at the fuel lines, carbs, intake, top of air cleaner, and of course radiator. Once I plugged up all the airflow AROUND my radiator the engine temps went down but everything under the hood that was benefitting from the leaky air was heating up enough to cause hot restart problems. Not as bad as you but I too dreaded a stall at a traffic light. I'm not finished fixing things but I feel I have a plan now involving heat shielding to most of the obvious fuel related parts. I'll probably post the results but now that its cold it messes up the numbers. Oh and for me my hot restart was helped by mashing the pedal to the floor for maybe 10 seconds before i tried to start it. I'm guess the butterflies opening let the fuel evaporate. I have more of a boiling/flooding issue than traditional vapor lock. Adding a return fuel line to handle the shut off boil pressure would do it but I'm going to try a few easier shielding things first.

 

[detmatt]

That’s what she said.

FWIW, it was the same as what i took out. now... that says both were bad and it has been there a while! But what length should it be?

A good rod will measure around 3 3/16”.

 

[mopar440]

One of the joys of of high pressure injection systems is that if anything leaks, you have an instant inferno.

Dave

I just worked on a 2.4 ecotech equinox, it had a high pressure fuel pump, capable of 3000 psi on it!

 

[bnz84]

Without giving away my idea, I wonder if the the seals of a Briggs and Statton home pressure washer can withstand fuel?

 

[BigblueC]

Wow, lots of suggestions here. @Fast Eddie B I suggest you apply the KISS method and start eliminating the simplest stuff first, which ever you think that is.

Let us know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Big_John]

Couple of old Chryslers I owned in the past had homemade looking insulation material wrapped up in aluminum foil that was stuffed under the intake manifold. Back in the '80's, I was told by a mechanic that the insulation was there to prevent the carb from percolating and that I should leave it there. Not sure whether or not this is relevant to your issue, jut passing it on.

The "insulating" material was there to quiet down engine noise. The tin manifold gasket doesn't do much to dampen the noise from the valve train.

The engine runs a lot cooler than the exhaust crossover on the bottom of the manifold.

Find another mechanic.

 

[bnz84]

I replaced my intake "insulating" mtrl that was meant for noise with roof flashing glued to some extra fiberglass header wrap. Sounds ghetto but with the flashing on top all you see is a brushed aluminum looking insert on top of the original tin valley pan. Barely noticeable. It provides measurably lower heat above the insert than without it, but really with all the other heat conductive metal I doubt it helps the carbs much. I was making some shielding for fuel lines and figured what the heck, lets try it.

 

[Big_John]

It provides measurably lower heat above the insert than without it,

Did you actually measure it?

 

[bnz84]

Did you actually measure it?

yes, my insert plate was 15 deg cooler than the valley pan it sat on. But the carbs did not benefit from it much if at all. Carbs were close to the same temp with and without.

 

[Big_John]

I don’t drive it because it starts soooo hard warm that I don’t want to go anywhere and shut it off. 77 T&C. 440. 107k miles. Ignition all tuned and recent. New fuel pump (just in case) Rebuilt TQ -professional from a real good carb shop. Starts first crank cold. Runs like a top. Smooth. No miss.

But starting warm? Fugeddaboutit. When I follow the instructions on the visor - ‘pedal 1/2 way, turn key’ 25/75 chance it starts. Otherwise, crank and hold the pedal down like its flooded and hope the car starts before the battery dies. Reminds me of 77 Chrysler’s back in the 70’s I seem to remember they always started hard warm.

Two questions:
1. Is there a known issue i am just missing that i need change?
2. Would fuel injection help at all?

I have significant restoration into this car and fuel injection would be a grain of sand on the beach if it works.

Would appreciate any thoughts.

Not one single guy on here has said "did you look at ____ ?"

Simple diagnostics are lost, but I digress.

So.. It's either fuel or electrical related. You need to do a little diagnosing to see what's going on. This is probably going to be tough to duplicate the problem as you probably aren't driving the car (IIRC, you are in the Buffalo area).

When it happens.... First thing I would do is take the air cleaner off and look down the carb throat. Is the choke on? That happens for a lot of reasons. If not, work the linkage and see if the accelerator pump is squirting fuel. Another quick check is a quick squirt of starting fluid in the top of the carb and if the engine starts, then it's carb or fuel related.

While the symptoms sound like carb, that axiom of most carb problems are electrical comes to mind. Pull the coil wire and see if there's a good spark to ground while cranking the engine.

Once you do that, then it's time to get into the problem a little deeper, but before the parts cannon fires a lot of parts and $$$ at the car, you need to try to figure out what's going on.

 

[Big_John]

yes, my insert plate was 15 deg cooler than the valley pan it sat on. But the carbs did not benefit from it much if at all. Carbs were close to the same temp with and without.

OK, and how did you measure it?

And what do you exactly mean by "insert plate"?